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	<title>Comments on: Penn and Teller: Twelve Step Programs Are Bullsh**  &#8211; I kind of disagree sort of</title>
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	<link>http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/</link>
	<description>The Neuroscience of Dysfunctional Behavior - Mostly Psychopaths and Sociopaths, Narcissists, Obesity and Addiction</description>
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		<title>By: swivelchair</title>
		<link>http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/comment-page-1/#comment-36516</link>
		<dc:creator>swivelchair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 22 Apr 2010 15:43:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/#comment-36516</guid>
		<description>Dr X - on the other end, the former alcoholics in my orbit when first out of rehab seem to be totally disoriented, as though their perception of the world was wrong -- I wonder if this is why. (I called it the &quot;shuffling uncle&quot; phase, no offense to shuffling uncles). They then relapse, if not back to alcohol, then at least to the grandiosity, it seems.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dr X &#8211; on the other end, the former alcoholics in my orbit when first out of rehab seem to be totally disoriented, as though their perception of the world was wrong &#8212; I wonder if this is why. (I called it the &#8220;shuffling uncle&#8221; phase, no offense to shuffling uncles). They then relapse, if not back to alcohol, then at least to the grandiosity, it seems.</p>
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		<title>By: dr x</title>
		<link>http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/comment-page-1/#comment-36512</link>
		<dc:creator>dr x</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Apr 2010 19:30:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/#comment-36512</guid>
		<description>An interesting post and discussion.  The neurological substrates are fascinating, but my comment goes more toward the phenomenological dimension.

In my experience as a clinician, I&#039;ve been struck by what seems to be a higher rate of narcissism among alcoholics.  I don&#039;t mean that as put down.  I simply mean that there is a tendency to slip into grandiose self-perceptions along with an oversensitivity to realistic appraisals that are deflating to grandiosity.  So alcoholics frequently find confrontation with the truth to be hurtful, infuriating or both.

Alcohol has a tendency to stoke feelings of grandiosity, so alcohol intoxication initially offers a place of solace to the narcissistic drinker.   But the cumulative effects of trying to maintain a chemically stoked sense of grandiosity are deleterious to every aspect of living in the real world.

I want to emphasize that I&#039;m just talking about what looks to me like a tendency.  Not all narcissists end up as alcoholics and not all alcoholics are narcissists.  But I&#039;ve certainly seen the narcissistic personality organization more often in alcoholics than in non-alcoholics. 

I do think AA can be of great value to alcoholics.  For one, the steps themselves, the support of a sponsor and the fellowship encourages more realistic self-appraisal, less narcissistic focus in relationships and a highly supportive, safe environment for contending with the painful wounds encountered when the focus shifts away from self-grandiosity and toward realism.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>An interesting post and discussion.  The neurological substrates are fascinating, but my comment goes more toward the phenomenological dimension.</p>
<p>In my experience as a clinician, I&#8217;ve been struck by what seems to be a higher rate of narcissism among alcoholics.  I don&#8217;t mean that as put down.  I simply mean that there is a tendency to slip into grandiose self-perceptions along with an oversensitivity to realistic appraisals that are deflating to grandiosity.  So alcoholics frequently find confrontation with the truth to be hurtful, infuriating or both.</p>
<p>Alcohol has a tendency to stoke feelings of grandiosity, so alcohol intoxication initially offers a place of solace to the narcissistic drinker.   But the cumulative effects of trying to maintain a chemically stoked sense of grandiosity are deleterious to every aspect of living in the real world.</p>
<p>I want to emphasize that I&#8217;m just talking about what looks to me like a tendency.  Not all narcissists end up as alcoholics and not all alcoholics are narcissists.  But I&#8217;ve certainly seen the narcissistic personality organization more often in alcoholics than in non-alcoholics. </p>
<p>I do think AA can be of great value to alcoholics.  For one, the steps themselves, the support of a sponsor and the fellowship encourages more realistic self-appraisal, less narcissistic focus in relationships and a highly supportive, safe environment for contending with the painful wounds encountered when the focus shifts away from self-grandiosity and toward realism.</p>
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		<title>By: swivelchair</title>
		<link>http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/comment-page-1/#comment-36511</link>
		<dc:creator>swivelchair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 21 Apr 2010 07:06:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/#comment-36511</guid>
		<description>Qwe and Bob, your comments represent both sides of the table -- AA is authoritarian and a cult-like belief system, but when your brain cells are deadened in acetone, well, that&#039;s maybe what you need.  I&#039;d like a good biostat person to really dig into the relapse rate because a 5% success rate doesn&#039;t mean 95% of 12 steppers are relapsing 100% of the time -- it&#039;s probably sinusoidal.  Addiction is biological, and maybe it correlates with some sort of biological rhythm. Anyway, thanks for the discussion, except the ad hominem remarks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Qwe and Bob, your comments represent both sides of the table &#8212; AA is authoritarian and a cult-like belief system, but when your brain cells are deadened in acetone, well, that&#8217;s maybe what you need.  I&#8217;d like a good biostat person to really dig into the relapse rate because a 5% success rate doesn&#8217;t mean 95% of 12 steppers are relapsing 100% of the time &#8212; it&#8217;s probably sinusoidal.  Addiction is biological, and maybe it correlates with some sort of biological rhythm. Anyway, thanks for the discussion, except the ad hominem remarks.</p>
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		<title>By: Qwe</title>
		<link>http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/comment-page-1/#comment-36466</link>
		<dc:creator>Qwe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 03:12:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/#comment-36466</guid>
		<description>If you say so...
Right, so you make a comment directed towards me and when I reply you tell me I shouldn&#039;t have. Huh? Yes, you&#039;re just too clever for me... 
Enjoy your meetings. That&#039;s it for me with this &quot;conversation&quot;.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>If you say so&#8230;<br />
Right, so you make a comment directed towards me and when I reply you tell me I shouldn&#8217;t have. Huh? Yes, you&#8217;re just too clever for me&#8230;<br />
Enjoy your meetings. That&#8217;s it for me with this &#8220;conversation&#8221;.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/comment-page-1/#comment-36465</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 02:42:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/#comment-36465</guid>
		<description>Nor you; seems you are powerless to let go! You are owned lol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Nor you; seems you are powerless to let go! You are owned lol</p>
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		<title>By: Qwe</title>
		<link>http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/comment-page-1/#comment-36464</link>
		<dc:creator>Qwe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 02:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/#comment-36464</guid>
		<description>Ah, now we have it, from the words of a stepper- any alcoholic who doesn&#039;t join the cult is doomed be a thieving raging alcoholic...
Thank you for the illustration- you said it better than I ever could. 
PS, that &quot;powerless&quot; nonsense doesn&#039;t  seem to be working for you...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Ah, now we have it, from the words of a stepper- any alcoholic who doesn&#8217;t join the cult is doomed be a thieving raging alcoholic&#8230;<br />
Thank you for the illustration- you said it better than I ever could.<br />
PS, that &#8220;powerless&#8221; nonsense doesn&#8217;t  seem to be working for you&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/comment-page-1/#comment-36463</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 00:35:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/#comment-36463</guid>
		<description>Qwe – Based on your infinite wisdom and insight, I’ve decided to give up on 12-Step Programs and start drinking and drugging again. Of course, I will quickly become unemployable and have to resort to criminal behaviors to support my habits. I’m curious, do you have anything worth stealing and what is your address? lol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Qwe – Based on your infinite wisdom and insight, I’ve decided to give up on 12-Step Programs and start drinking and drugging again. Of course, I will quickly become unemployable and have to resort to criminal behaviors to support my habits. I’m curious, do you have anything worth stealing and what is your address? lol</p>
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		<title>By: Qwe</title>
		<link>http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/comment-page-1/#comment-36462</link>
		<dc:creator>Qwe</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 05 Apr 2010 00:28:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/#comment-36462</guid>
		<description>It&#039;s always revealing to watch 12-steppers react angrily when their &quot;fellowship&quot; is being exposed. The reflexive defensiveness so often encountered only helps to heighten suspicion that something is indeed rotten in Denmark. As for whether AA is a cult, I&#039;ll point to a published study from sociologists Alexandra &amp; Rollins, who used Lifton&#039;s criteria of thought--control/brainwashing and applied them to AA. They concluded that AA was most definately engaged in thought-control/brainwashing. As for it&#039;s effectiveness, ALL randomized, longitudinal, controlled studies have shown a dismal &quot;success&quot; rate (around 5%) that is the same as spontaneous remission. It&#039;s actually funny that 12 steppers are complaining about the age of the studies. If 12 step treatment is so effective, why the complete lack of randomized, longitudinal, controlled studies which show this? 90% of &quot;treatment&quot; is 12 step based, so it&#039;s supporters certainly have the means. Are they reluctant to perform valid studies because they fear the results? Most studies done lack either a control or aren&#039;t random(or both). The ones that have both are the ones with the dismal AA &quot;success&quot; rates. Speaking of recent studies, look at what Miller and Hester&#039;s(U of NM)  found; in a list of 48 therapies for alcoholism (in order of effectiveness), Aa was listed near the bottom (38, I believe).</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>It&#8217;s always revealing to watch 12-steppers react angrily when their &#8220;fellowship&#8221; is being exposed. The reflexive defensiveness so often encountered only helps to heighten suspicion that something is indeed rotten in Denmark. As for whether AA is a cult, I&#8217;ll point to a published study from sociologists Alexandra &amp; Rollins, who used Lifton&#8217;s criteria of thought&#8211;control/brainwashing and applied them to AA. They concluded that AA was most definately engaged in thought-control/brainwashing. As for it&#8217;s effectiveness, ALL randomized, longitudinal, controlled studies have shown a dismal &#8220;success&#8221; rate (around 5%) that is the same as spontaneous remission. It&#8217;s actually funny that 12 steppers are complaining about the age of the studies. If 12 step treatment is so effective, why the complete lack of randomized, longitudinal, controlled studies which show this? 90% of &#8220;treatment&#8221; is 12 step based, so it&#8217;s supporters certainly have the means. Are they reluctant to perform valid studies because they fear the results? Most studies done lack either a control or aren&#8217;t random(or both). The ones that have both are the ones with the dismal AA &#8220;success&#8221; rates. Speaking of recent studies, look at what Miller and Hester&#8217;s(U of NM)  found; in a list of 48 therapies for alcoholism (in order of effectiveness), Aa was listed near the bottom (38, I believe).</p>
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		<title>By: swivelchair</title>
		<link>http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/comment-page-1/#comment-36418</link>
		<dc:creator>swivelchair</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 21:56:08 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/#comment-36418</guid>
		<description>Now, now, Bob, don&#039;t go picking on Penn &amp; Teller. AA and NA deserve to be audited now and again, even if Penn &amp; Teller are the ones to do it. Actually, maybe Penn &amp; Teller should have audited Lehman.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Now, now, Bob, don&#8217;t go picking on Penn &amp; Teller. AA and NA deserve to be audited now and again, even if Penn &amp; Teller are the ones to do it. Actually, maybe Penn &amp; Teller should have audited Lehman.</p>
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		<title>By: Bob</title>
		<link>http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/comment-page-1/#comment-36417</link>
		<dc:creator>Bob</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 20 Mar 2010 17:32:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/06/09/does-twelve-step-do-any-good/#comment-36417</guid>
		<description>12 Step Programs (such as AA and NA) provide a forum in which to share problems with peers and look for solutions (take what you need and leave the rest), encourage members to have a Higher Power (of their own choosing) to help them through their problems, and provide a community in which to socialize absent drugs including alcohol. That doesn&#039;t seem too cultish to me. The entertainment industry, on the other hand, is harsh and unforgiving, strict and controlling about how success is achieved (kissing ass and providing sexual favors) and by whom, and provides a community in which to socialize where backstabbing, drug and sex abuse, and personality disorders are the norm. Penn and Teller may be the ones trapped in a cult? lol</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>12 Step Programs (such as AA and NA) provide a forum in which to share problems with peers and look for solutions (take what you need and leave the rest), encourage members to have a Higher Power (of their own choosing) to help them through their problems, and provide a community in which to socialize absent drugs including alcohol. That doesn&#8217;t seem too cultish to me. The entertainment industry, on the other hand, is harsh and unforgiving, strict and controlling about how success is achieved (kissing ass and providing sexual favors) and by whom, and provides a community in which to socialize where backstabbing, drug and sex abuse, and personality disorders are the norm. Penn and Teller may be the ones trapped in a cult? lol</p>
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