Neurological Correlates

82 responses so far ↓

• 1 ItsTheWooo // Jan 20, 2009 at 2:22 am

  This entry was great. I love how your blog always raises such interesting points that I walk away with dozens more questions.

  Forgive me if you find this forward or offensive but do you have a personal reason for your intellectual interest in stalking?

• 2 swivelchair // Jan 20, 2009 at 2:56 pm

  Hey ITW, happy new year — thanks for the kind words and backatcha.

  I heard this hypothetical person may be checking in here, or, forwarding this blog with disparaging remarks in order to discredit anything I may have to say about this hypothetical person. So I posted this: http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2009/01/04/to-my-stalker-you-are-a-philanthropist-and-humanitarian/

  And I started a huge anti-sociopath activism movement, it’s huge. (N=1, me). (My sophisticated branding department (me) even made a logo, in the left column ).

  Coincidentally, after the first post, BOJS released a huge statistical analysis of stalkers and victims, and there’s a proclamation for National Stalking Awareness Month.

  Thanks for the comment – I’ve been catching up on your blog, take care and you should be able to find decent rentals for cheap in this market.

• 3 In Which I’m Low On Content But High On Work // Jan 22, 2009 at 5:10 pm

  [...] There’s also Get High on Encephalon #62, including some cool posts on Laughing gas and stalking, evolutionary perspectives on personality traits and an interesting one on how apparently more [...]

• 4 Lehman // Jan 31, 2009 at 11:14 am

  I’m serious. What is your thought process?

  Well, looking back on my behavior, (and I was in therapy at the time), I was extremely narcissistic, had an abandonment issue with my dad, and had extreme anxiety and depression.
  I could not tolerate uncertainty. I thought it would be better to know if he was with her or not. It was sick, I hated it, but I had so much anxiety, I could only fight it so long. Mostly it was just driving down his street to see if he was at home or at work. I did wait for him to come home once. One thing that escalated the problem was that he was indirect in his communication. I also had all-or-none, black and white thinking. I am happy to say I am past it. I started going back to church and the sense of peace I had soothed much of the anxiety. In therapy, I also worked through what was behind the narcissism and was able to love someone, then I could see my behavior through his perspective. Before I was unable to do it.

• 5 swivelchair // Feb 1, 2009 at 9:31 pm

  Lehman, (and I hope your name doesn’t indicate that you are layed off in the financial sector) — Lehman – anxiety trumps empathy every time. Thanks for your comment, and, I’m going to guess that a number of people who either read or stumble on to this blog will relate to your remarks. Blogging is like that, I’ve found. So really, thanks for the comment. And good for you meeting your anxiety and narcissism head on, and moving on with your life.

  If I understand, you were trying not to instill fear and intimidation as any kind of vindictiveness, but rather you were trying (in a distorted way) to actually get the person back. Had your ex been direct, like saying “go away” — then you would not have stalked him (if I understand your comment, and the whole binary thought process).

  I’m not a shrink by any stretch, but this seems more like abandonment anxiety rather than vindictive stalking. I mean, as distorted as it was, there was a reason for it. If the object of your desire were to say, “I’m wrong, come back to me” you would’ve taken them back and been happy.

  I don’t get vindictive stalking. I mean, if you don’t like someone, you get them out of your life, right? Yet, vindictive stalkers actually are controlled by the targets they purport not to like because they spend their own time paying attention to them. Sort of like, “I hate you and you are unworthy of me, so I’m going to take time out of my busy day to pay as much attention to you as possible.” That’s why it seems like there’s an OCD component.

  Is/was anyone out there a stalker trying to instill fear into their target? Can you explain it to me?

• 6 P // Feb 4, 2009 at 8:55 pm

  OK, so I’ll bite.

  As a psychotherapist recently diagnosed with OCD who has engaged in some “stalking behaviors” myself, I’m speaking from both personal and clinical experience here.

  I began in late February/early March of this year to have obsessive thoughts about my neighbor. It was as if I woke up one day and realized that I could see him through my window, as he had no blinds on his windows, nor did I. This developed into a checking ritual which became increasingly more frequent. I struggled with these thoughts and feelings for months, before finally “cracking” and Emailing him in late June. I felt the need to confess to him, a hallmark of OCD.

  Not surprisingly, he did not want to talk to me. He didn’t return Emails, and after a few days, I called him at his office to genuinely apologize for my inappropriate behavior. Shortly thereafter, he/his wife called the police on me. This only served to increase my anxiety, as I became desperate to have him and his wife understand that I was not some dangerous stalker, rather someone who was dealing with an acute anxiety disorder.

  Keep in mind that OCD is a clinical syndrome/illness like depression. It’s not something that you ask for or that you can control on your own. I think, in fact, that it’s one of the most misunderstood diagnoses out there. People with OCD by definition have overdeveloped consciences and are typically concerned to the extreme with not hurting others (emotionally and certainly not physically). They tend to be intelligent, sensitive, and caring people who typically put the feelings of others before their own.

  Unfortunately, the stalking-like behavior that may accompany this type of OCD usually leads those who come into contact with sufferers to fear that they are “bad” people, either (1) personality disordered or (2) delusional/psychotic. Niether of these conditions has anything at all to do with OCD. Therefore, OCD sufferers are often treated with a great deal of hostility.

  Anyway, that’s my take on this. Most people truly are ignorant regarding issues of mental health. I find that the literature on the subject of stalking is waaay slanted to those w/ Antisocial, Narcissistic, or Borderline Personalities or with Delusional Disorders.

  Believe me, I’ve read all the literature. Little of it fits me and has been helpful with me in my situation.

  The anxiety related to OCD can get so extreme that one may become blinded to the needs and boundaries of others. Oftentimes, people report that it’s like waking up from a bad nightmare to find that you’ve emotionally harmed people while you were ill. This is certainly true in my case.

  I feel that I turned a corner right around the New Year, and things have been much better for me since. No contact. I’ve seen him around the ‘hood a couple of times, and he says “hi.” I think the thing next door is over. But I know that I really need to watch it and to stay on the Anafranil I’ve been prescribed.

  Any questions, I’m an open book.

  P

• 7 P // Feb 4, 2009 at 8:57 pm

  Oh, and to answer your question, I was never trying to instill fear in my neighbor or his wife. My goal was for them to understand that I WASN’T a sociopath and that they were safe living next door to me. When you can’t communicate, though, things get really difficult.

  I honestly don’t understand the wanting to instill fear thing myself.

  P

• 8 P // Feb 4, 2009 at 9:09 pm

  Can you tell that I’m obsessive? Here’s post 3 just in case you can’t:

  There was exactly 1 article on the web that I found helpful to me in my situation. It validated what my MD psychiatrist had told me and kept me somewhat sane, anyway, during a very rough several months.

  Here’s the link:

  http://westsuffolkpsych.homestead.com/ObsessiveLove.html

  P

• 9 swivelchair // Feb 4, 2009 at 9:42 pm

  Hi P, and wow. You are like the perfect person to post a comment because you both know the behavior as well as the cause. This makes an easy life for an anonymous blogger.
  
  Thank you for your post and the total clarity in describing your experiences — it does sound like it was a nightmare. Glad things seem to be smoothing over in the ‘hood.

  I don’t mean to trivialize your condition, but it sounds a little like that movie, “Rear Window”. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047396/plotsummary

  There is no OCD literature on stalking (at least that I found), except for popular press “stalking” of “obsessive” fans of celebrities — not the same thing. As you point out, the other literature relates to stalkers who are either delusional, or have aggressive hostility — almost the opposite of OCD.

  And thanks for the offer of answering questions, so here’s one: What happens when you don’t satisfy the urge of your compulsion/obsession?

  (Please don’t respond if this is too personal, but I do think it is helpful for people to talk about. )

• 10 swivelchair // Feb 4, 2009 at 9:43 pm

  P, our posts crossed at the same time, and I’m going to have to read your link later — thanks for the posts.

• 11 P // Feb 5, 2009 at 3:27 am

  Re: Rear Window. Some similarities, yes. Also to American Beauty. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that I became obssessed with the neighbor I could see in plain view day in and day out. It’s not like I went out looking for this, “it” found “me” so to speak.

  What would happen when I wouldn’t satisfy my compulsive urges? A few things, actually. Sometimes I would become increasingly anxious. Oftentimes this would lead to an increase in depression and self-loathing, and I’d sometimes take to my bed for hours at a time, hoping and waiting for the thoughts to subside.

  Lately, I’ve been fighting against the urge to “do nothing,” and I find that engaging in exercise – I lift light weights, and, in particular, going for a brisk 30-40 minute walk routinely has been healthy for me.

  I’m embarassed to admit, too, that I have used drugs to cope with the anxious/depressive feelings. There have been times over the last several months when I have felt so hurt and so misunderstood that I’ve blotted out my feelings in any way I could.

  With a combination of the above, I’ve managed to go a month to a month and a half without contact, and I’m right about at that mark now. Only now, I feel that I pretty well have it licked. Here’s hoping so anyway.

  And really, if there’s anything anyone can learn from me or that I can learn from anyone else about this experience, I want to learn it. I’ve really been frustrated by the lack of resources and support for those of us who do engage in these behaviors. It was upsetting to me to be lumped into categories that I felt didn’t fit me.

  I even tried to describe my experience on one website that was supposed to be for “support” only to have my comments edited out because they were judged to be too “graphic.” All I did was describe the looking at my neighbor part in vague detail, and I was locked out of the site.

  There’s a psychosexual angle that I’m probably downplaying here some, but I’ll leave that, along with the rest of my story, for further questions if anyone else has any.

  And swivel; you’re welcome and thank you too. The opportunity and ability to share, as I’ve noted, has been far too infrequent.

• 12 swivelchair // Feb 5, 2009 at 4:08 pm

  Hey P,
  Yup, exercise is like chicken soup: a little is good, more is better, and too much can’t hurt (usually).

  Thanks for keeping your post to “PG”-ratings here and I think people get your drift. With anything, blogs and forums are a tough crowd and people interpret the written word much differently than when it’s spoken.

  What struck me about your description, if I understand correctly, is that anxiety/depressive symptoms seems to ebb and flow. There’s a paper that OCD sufferers may have circadian patterns to brain hormones/ neurosteroids. (Link below). (I’m not a shrink or any kind of MD so huge grain of salt here. . . ). Anyway, I wonder if your taking to bed is almost a self-medication of the circadian rhythm of these brain chemicals.

  Question: Did you see the film the Aviator? About Howard Hughes? Was that OCD?

  http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T8T-4SN92P5-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=474bd84c9621629026bd74c4641d67ec

• 13 P // Feb 5, 2009 at 5:36 pm

  No problem. I’m all about PG.

  I agree with you re: spoken word. I think the neighbors next door read a lot into some of the Emails that I sent. Not a good way to communicate. Then have the cops tell you, “she thinks you’re a danger to your kids, but you can’t talk about it.”

  Anyway, re: The Aviator. I saw it in the theater when it came out. If I’m remembering correctly, it seemed to me that he had a lot of Axis I symptomalogy going on. OCD, yes, in terms of the handwashing and germophobia. Panic disorder w/ agoraphobia for sure. Major depression, severe, perhaps with psychotic sxs. There seemed to be a lot going on with him in the movie.

  I hadn’t heard the theory re: circadian rhythms, but it’s interesting. Perhaps that’s part of it. I just know that things have been better the last several weeks, and I feel like I’m on the road to recovery.

  Any other questions or thoughts?

  I’ll give you some demographic info:

  39 y.o. GWM, partnered x 20 years. Have my own private practice. No significant Axis II traits that I’m aware of (ha ha). Tested negative on the MMPI several years ago. Pretty empathic. Maybe too much for my own good. I think that I had a terribly difficult time reconciling what “they thought about me” with the person I knew myself to be. I’m a Myers Briggg INFJ–healer type, yada yada. Obvious self-esteem issues.

• 14 swivelchair // Feb 5, 2009 at 8:33 pm

  Hey P,

  Thank you again for your comments, and your insight. And your insight about your insight.
  

  Law enforcement is the first line contact with mental health issues, and probably the least educated. Tragic.

  Of course, being unable to explain to others has got to be one of those nightmare scenarios. But, if others are dubious about you, how are you to communicate if you don’t e mail? So there is an entire PR problem.

  Yes, the Aviator was about all of that, and it’s interesting to me that you put OCD as probably the least of Howard Hughes’ problems. I wasn’t sure what OCD symptoms were and what was something else.

  Feel free to post more remarks, P, I’m going to do some research on OCD and put up a post.

  And think about this: the effect your post is probably having on other people.

  Seriously, your description of your experiences is very valuable. So thank you for taking the time to post on this sort of out-there blog by an anonymous blogger.

• 15 H // Feb 11, 2009 at 11:55 am

  I have to say that I am really impressed with P’s enlightening comments. I googled Stalking and OCD-because I have the uncanny (extremely unpleasant) feeling that someone at work has stalking tendencies, unfortunately directing this towards me! Suffering from OCD myself (and coincidentally studying psychology), I felt that perhaps there is a link between obsessive thinking and stalking.

  Apparantly I was right. However, I do not feel that P is a stalker |(sorry P . Seeing that this would mean that I would have to call myself a stalker- not because I have pestered or threatened anyone, but because I do (like anyone who suffers from OCD) go over things, both in my mind and in conversation with others. Obsessively. And this has lead to phoning people 10 times in a row in the past, or emailing several times JUST TO GET A RESPONSE. In one case it was an ex-boyfriend who just did not get the message across, and had to spell it out to me. But perhaps now I DO sound crazy

  The tendency to doublecheck information is mostly because I need “closure” (at the lack of a better word) and most of my friends/family find it quite amusing/mildly annoying, and in fact my sister has put her phone on silent quite a few times…

  I do not seem to bug people that I don’t know, perhaps that would simply be a sign of crossing the line. What I am trying to say is that I basically understand the tendency.

  I have made my peace with this so called “disease”- considering that I am from a huge family and about 4 of us have OCD tendencies. Everyone seems to be doing well though, and I am lucky enough not to be on medication. I may pop in to see a shrink once in a while, and will probably find the process of blabbering about anyting on my mind to someone at £60 an hour, both comforting and fulfilling.

  To get to the point, P seems to me to be reasonable, rational and empathetic and not like the typical Stalker who according to some of the reading I’ve done lacks social skills, as well as sympathy with the victim, has little emotional intelligence and is manipulative and intrusive.

  Which pretty much fits the description of this guy that works with me!! :0

• 16 H // Feb 11, 2009 at 12:36 pm

  Apologies, I just read P’s comments again (OCD?? huh? and quite obviously P does not refer to himself as a Stalker, but as his OCD motivated behaviour being misinterpreted as stalking. Something I can associate with/understand.

• 17 swivelchair // Feb 11, 2009 at 1:22 pm

  H, thanks for your comment, and not to complain , but yoo hoo, medical profession, how ’bout some info on OCD and “stalking” loosely defined as the recognized stalking behavior without the malevolent intent?

  Is it me, or is the medical profession just not paying attention to some of these behaviors and biological causes? Color me cynical. This seems like a whole lot of trouble for OCD folks to go through, when clear communication and maybe some targeted PR could probably clear up most of the misunderstanding. (Yes, I’m optimistic about acceptance of a neurodiversity movement, probably unrealistically so).

  Any health care providers who can point to a web site or something giving OCD folks and their families information? Send it in a comment here, and I’ll put it up on a link in a side bar.

  OCD “stalkers” without bad intent aren’t the problem, except to the extent they freak people out unnecessarily. I suppose freaking yourself out may fall into that category Perhaps OCD folks should be aware that this can be a symptom and perhaps come up with a plan on how to communicate that to others and avoid P’s trouble with law enforcement. I don’t know, but maybe there are patient advocacy groups who can put the word out.

  But, H, I disagree with you that “stalkers” are socially maladapted. I am aware of malevolent stalkers who are extremely adept in social circumstances, such that they seem “more normal than normal.” There seems to be an OCD component in the persistent seeking power and control, stuck in some kind of a reward-loop. Different motivation, yet the same.

  Are there any former malevolent stalkers out there who want to let us in on what’s the deal? I still don’t get it: if you loathe someone so much, why spend so much of your own valuable time on them?

• 18 H // Feb 12, 2009 at 1:04 pm

  Hi, it would seem that very little research has been done on OCD sufferers and what may seem like stalking tendencies to the untrained eye. In fact I googled “OCD stalking” and apart from this very informative conversation, very little else popped up. It would be great if more research along these lines could be done. If for nothing else, to make things easier on us.

  On the other hand; the opposite seems to be true in that I could not find much relating to stalkers who have been diagnosed with OCD. To clarify “What percentage of those persons who can by all accounts be labelled ‘Stalkers’ , i.e. are receiving treatment for stalking behaviour/have restraining orders against them, as also suffering from OCD?”. Some information (if there is any!) on this would also be very useful to me.

  Please note that I am really mainly referring to the more persistent types of stalkers like the intimacy seeker or rejected stalker who apparently also do not tend to resort to violence.

  Example: Person A at work (let’s call this a case study (although I am by no means a “medical professional” in any way, and all of this is really just a hunch!) undoubtedly suffers from OCD (ironically I realized this because I have some of the same OCD tendencies).

  Person A’s behaviour in a nutshell: attempts to get as much personal information relating to me as possible (without seeming suspicious). For instance sending a friend request on “facebook” within a month of me starting work there and without even having had a proper conversation (also not having added anyone else at work, although being there for at least two years), is extremely anxious about when my contract may expire and I may “leave”- and on average asks me once a week when I “reckon this may be”, checks my calendar, gets visually distressed when I ignore him, pays no attention to the fact that I have a boyfriend (even having met him at work party), attempts to persuade me in (what he must perceive as cunning) ways to spend time with him after work (elaborate stories about needing another team mate at work related extramural activities), strategically plans exactly what he will say to me and never wanders over spontaneously- instead seeking excuses to be near me, always approaches me when no one else is around, at one point started getting up and ready to go home around the time I would, and attempted to casually “stroll” with me to the bus stop…the list is long.

  “This” has been going on for 7 months, and I fear may continue for at least as long as I work there and he has contact with me. Although it is pretty obvious to most of our co-workers that this guy has a crush on me, I don’t reckon that people think that he is threatening (he comes over a quite shy/timid) and no one really knows a lot about him (he is a bit of a loner).

  You may think that this all seems harmless, but I obviously find this kind of behaviour threatening and very disturbing. At the same time- what is this guy REALLY doing, and apart from being obsessed with me… nothing too obvious…so not an easy case to make.

  I did a little research and Person A definitely strikes me as being an Intimacy Seeker who “seeks to establish an intimate, loving relationship with their victim. To them, the victim is a long sought-after soul mate, and they were meant to be together. Also, they may have the delusion that the victim is in love with them–usually called erotomania. They may interpret any kind of response from the victim as encouragement, even negative responses. (I have ignored this guy for weeks on end, being really rude and stand offish most of the time).
  They may believe the victim owes them love because of all they have invested in stalking them, and is very resistant to changing their beliefs. The intimacy seeker has an inflated sense of entitlement (Told my boyfriend he should not be surprised if he “reads about him some day”). After the rejected stalker, the intimacy seeker is the most persistent type of stalker. They are usually unresponsive to legal sanctions, viewing them as challenges to overcome that demonstrate their love for the victim.

  To get to my point (at last!) – so this guy has OCD, and is stalking me I reckon. Which does not mean that all types of persistent stalkers (at the lack of a better phrase- I am referring to as mentioned mostly the “resentful” and “intimacy seeker” types of stakers) suffer from OCD, but perhaps a significant percentage of them do?? In which case it would be a hell of a lot easier to understand how the so called Stalker’s mind works, perhaps resorting to treatments such as CBT to challenge these kind of stalking behaviours.

  I also would like to make it clear that I am not concerned about OCD sufferers whose behaviour are mistaken for “stalking”- which is pretty harmless in itself, seeing that crime statistics proof that OCD sufferers barely harm as much as a fly. It’s the other side of the coin that I am wondering about.

  Ps. I agree with you that a lot of stalkers are not socially maladaptive. Perhaps I wasreferring to Person A. And perhaps he is not as socially maladaptive as I reckon- instead just dismissing information that contradicts what he wants to believe/how he sees things

• 19 swivelchair // Feb 14, 2009 at 3:32 pm

  H, I hope you can find someone to help you out with the person at your work. It sounds worrisome. I don’t know how to go about getting someone to get some treatment, but perhaps there are experts somewhere who do.

  From you and P, OCD- or OCD-ish behavior sounds like Tourette’s Syndrome except instead of un-voluntary “tics”, it is un-voluntary thoughts and actions. The analogy would be: what an involuntary “tic” is to a Tourette’s sufferer, an involuntary “thought” is to an OCD sufferer.

  After all, same neural wiring, just going to a different place — physical movement vs. abstract thought. Either way, not reward-dopamine driven: the sufferer doesn’t want the unwanted thought. It is un-voluntary.

  Contrast the malevolent stalker: different motivation. Seems to be originally driven perhaps by a dopamine urge, then stuck in an OCD-style repeated loop.
  I don’t get it.

• 20 H // Feb 16, 2009 at 11:32 am

  Jip, I am keeping an eye on things. This guy is obviously obsessed with me, and although I don’t feel physically threatened, it’s a bit of a mental battle at the moment. Interesting to observe though, once you realize what’s happening it is much easier to keep a sober eye on things. I would advice any one to trust their gut instincts about these things- for months I was amiable, even pitied this guy, before I realized that I should have trusted my instincts from the beginning..Perhaps a female tendency I dare say!

  I agree with OCD being like Taurette’s – just with involuntary thoughts, a very good analogy.

  Also baffled as to why people stalk, hopefully someone can throw some light on this. Could be easier to analyze the type of situation that involves either a “rejected” or “resentful” stalker where the Stalker knows the victim, and usually has easier access for this reason, and there’s bit of history. Easier also to look at the “predatory” stalker whose main motivation seems to be sexual gratification. But maybe I am over-simplifying.

  On the other hand, when it comes to the “intimacy seeker” things seem a bit more complex.

  Good point..Not sure now where of even IF OCD comes into the picture at all! With OCD you are trying very hard to rid yourself of “dirty/wrong” thoughts and constantly battling with feelings of guilt, and “Obsession” in the case of stalking seems to be contemplative and sinister, as well as premeditated/calculated in a lot of cases. Something very different indeed.

• 21 H // Feb 16, 2009 at 1:05 pm

  Aha, I should have done my research- just read the initial postings on OCD etc. I quote ” Cognitive inflexibility: similar to those with OCD, the fronto-striatal loop seems to be stuck: stalkers so objectify the targets that beyond mere “obsession”, there is a compulsive need to “complete” the stalking….

  This is much more along the lines of what I meant but could not quite articulate. Well said!

• 22 swivelchair // Feb 16, 2009 at 1:46 pm

  H, thank you for your insight.

  The Tourette’s analogy is very interesting to me (and I don’t mean to trivialize or marginalize, just from a strictly neural wiring point of view).

  The OCD aspect of stalking is, from what I can see, totally different from the more “intimacy seeking” aspect, where people seem to be delusional.

  So, again, the hostile stalker, the one who has an agenda beyond just un-voluntarily satisfying a compulsion, seems to use stalking as an instrumentality toward some kind of goal, usually vindictive, it seems.

  Perhaps the question should be, is there OCD-based vindictiveness? Some people are stalked for years. Why would anyone do that, if it wasn’t some compulsive behavior?

• 23 P // Feb 16, 2009 at 10:25 pm

  I would guess that most people who engage in stalking behaviors primarily the result of OCD aren’t being vindictive. Now, I can see where the clinical picture might get very murky if some Axis II disorders were thrown in. Is it possible to be OCD and have AntiSocial PD? Surely it is. This all seems so clinicall complicated to me.

  One could really do a short course on Stalking 101 and have hours of material to present because of the diversity represented under such a vast penumbra.

  P

• 24 swivelchair // Feb 17, 2009 at 12:13 pm

  Agree, the OCD component seems to relate to persistence, rather than motive. In vindictive stalkers, the stalking is the instrumentality, or the tool, to get at the target of their wrath. If there were another way to assert themselves they’d to that. So the OCD probably only accounts for the length of time these people feel vindictive. (I’m totally speculating).

  I’m more focused on the neural wiring perhaps underpinnning the behavior, and found a paper on wife batterers — someone finally put domestic violence offenders in an fmri. Sheesh I don’t really know what to make of it except the parts of the brain that light up aren’t the ones related to emotion, or even fear. Totally unexpected to me, but maybe totally expected for those in the field, I don’t know. I’m working up a post for later today or tomorrow and any insights you have would certainly be appreciated.

• 25 H // Feb 18, 2009 at 8:40 am

  Interesting I reckon- relates to domestic abuse/stalking

  http://nativetimes.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=937&Itemid=35

  “As an obsessive-compulsive condition, stalkers do become addicted—not to external substances but to their own brain chemicals. The longer they stalk the more obsessive they become until they kill”.

• 26 H // Feb 18, 2009 at 8:42 am

  and on OCD/stalking specifically

  http://www.disability-resource.com/OCD/am-i-crazy-in-love-or-just-crazy-.php

• 27 H // Feb 18, 2009 at 8:43 am

  and something on OCD/stalking specifically

  http://www.disability-resource.com/OCD/am-i-crazy-in-love-or-just-crazy-.php

• 28 swivelchair // Feb 18, 2009 at 4:50 pm

  Thanks H, yup, there it is, OCD for stalking. Thanks for the links. I wonder if the people who frequent gaming casinos may have and OCD tendency — leading to the noted high incidence of Native Americans being stalked (by anyone, not just other Native Americans).

  I have a new post up about wife batterers – similar to OCD-ish wiring, it looks like there is an involuntary stimulus-connection (but the data is pretty sparce). I was surprised that no one has put malevolent stalkers or wife batterers in the fmri to see what’s what, and just lately, it seems this is starting.

• 29 H // Feb 19, 2009 at 4:59 am

  I’ve been googling (from there all these quite random links!) and there is apparantly a link between Huntington disease (of which I know very little..) and stalking

  On Huntington’s:

  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntington‘s_disease

  Research:

  http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118519282/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0

  http://www.crimetimes.org/08a/w08ap8.htm

  Could be interesting when looking at some of the neurological findings, sometimes a link between all these things

• 30 swivelchair // Feb 19, 2009 at 1:20 pm

  Wow, how interesting.

  This is certainly not to say that people with OCD have Huntington’s (just to make that clear so people are not unduly alarmed).

  Huntington’s, Fragile X, Parkinson’s and other “trinucleotide” repeat disorders — all seem to have a “pre”-condition before neuromuscular problems flare up.

  The “pre-” psychological states can be:

  Machiavellianism (http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2007/10/04/neurological-correlates-machiavellianism/)

  or depression
  http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/09/04/depression-may-be-genetic-in-fragile-x-premutation-carriers/

  or any number of personality changes. Now we know OCD can be another aspect.

• 31 Mateo // Feb 20, 2009 at 4:34 pm

  Hi, “Swivel”…. and first off, I am really appreciating stumbling upon your site, and there doesn’t seem to be anything else quite like it…. thank you!

  Have always been interested in psychology, and especially evolutionary cognitive issues (i.e. Jaynes, “The Bicameral Mind”, etc.), but having once been married to a woman who was later clinically diagnosed as NPD/BPD, have become intrigued by the rapidly growing data linking personality disorders to specific neurological/organic deficits, along with the notion that all of this is much more common in modern culture than we may know.

  Also, I hear ‘ya re: “is the medical profession just not paying attention to some of these behaviors and biological causes?”. In the case of my “ex”, we must have gone thru at least a half dozen marriage counseling “experts”, some with doctorates, extensive couples research and famous books under their belts, who were even teaching at local universities. And yet none of them ever broached the idea of psychological issues to either of us during couples counseling, although in retrospect, some of the behaviors I was describing with her were pretty bizarre (chronic rages, self-destructive acts, unusual “fixed” & repetitive behaviors, etc.).

  I mentioned previous, Dr. Daniel Amen’s “Change Your Brain, Change Your Life”, which explains the brain/behavior links in layman’s terms, and that I eventually stumbled upon. Of particular interest was the fact that he devotes several chapters explaining certain relationship difficulties in terms of brain imbalances (“risky” & “fixed” cingulate behaviors, etc.).

  Long story short, we went to one of his clinics, and discovered the issues with my “ex” after we went thru lengthy psychiatric evaluations and brain PET scans (which perhaps not surprisingly, showed her brain lit up like a xmas tree, even at rest). But as often happens with these folks, there followed total denial of any problem, even in the face of the evidence, so my options had become pretty clear by then.

  Have noticed lately that just as Autism and Asperger’s have come to be regarded as existing on a “continuum”, some are now suggesting that perhaps all the Axis II disorders (and perhaps even Axis I) may similarly exist along some sort of “continuum” based on developmental and organic deficits.

  Obviously the results of all this are only slowly hitting public awareness, but all of it would seem to have enormous implications in every area, including education, criminal justice, politics, religion, etc.. Actually, it seems like the early controversies re: the practice of “medicating” disorders, was only the beginning of all this.

  BTW, how did you become interested in this area yourself, and what are you seeing as some of the growing concerns that are emerging? Also, the Europeans have been alot more “progressive” in similar areas, so I wonder if they’ve been starting to dealing with these issues any differently from a social perspective.

  Anyway, very well done, and thanks again!

• 32 swivelchair // Feb 20, 2009 at 10:50 pm

  Mateo, thank you for your kind words, and I’m glad you find this information perhaps useful. You sound like you’ve taken a lot of time to read what’s out there. The biology clicked for me, so I took to PUBMED self help. (This was some time ago, and there’s a lot more relevant information now.)

  After a year of blogging about white collar sociopaths, the whole financial meltdown hit, and pretty much confirmed my suspicions. Plus, the various dysfunctional people in my personal orbit had gotten out of control (another story). So I recently went activist.

  And here we are, home of “Anti-sociopath-activism”.

  M, knowledge is power. Sorry about your ex — sheesh. You made it to the other side.

  I really think there are so many people who have been through something like this (not to trivialize your experience at all, or say it’s common or anything), but the demographics have got to be huge. What a shame.

• 33 Mateo // Feb 22, 2009 at 8:36 am

  Thanks! And BTW, I think the NPD model might explain some stalking behaviors. Just as the NP’s undeveloped ego/sense of self requires not only an internal “grandiose” self-image, they also heavily depend on others for “narcissistic supply” to prop that image up. This usually includes “projecting” some of the missing parts of their psyche onto others, resulting in relationships with a partner that is very “over-idealized”. But naturally all this only lasts until ‘reality’ sets in, and the partner eventually begins objecting, sets boundaries, or leaves, causing “narcissistic wounding”. In fact NP’s are notoriously hyper-sensitive to any perceived criticisms of their behavior, often putting them into a rage, and depriving them of their idealized “other”, is not only a criticism, in a real sense it is also depriving them of a piece of who they “are”.

• 34 swivelchair // Feb 22, 2009 at 2:00 pm

  Mateo you clearly have been giving this a lot of thought and I appreciate your insights. Yup, that’s the “NPD” playbook, repeated a zillion times every minute of the day.

  I found the the purely psychological point of view unsatisfying. I’d like to figure out the neural wiring, and then warn everyone.

  I’m thinking “NPD” is actually a form of dementia, or at least the inability of neuronal plasticity in the front part of the brain relating to moral decision making (or so it’s thought). “NPD” is a fairly rigid view of the world, and it seems like a neural plasticity problem. Plus, people sliding into dementias may become more Machiavellian as they go along.

• 35 Mateo // Feb 22, 2009 at 6:44 pm

  Yes, totally agreed that the psychology and behavior is primarily a manifestation of a neurological deficit, itself the result of genetic, traumatic and/or developmental causes. For example, my “ex” clearly had genetic components, with a history of dementia (you’re right!) in the family, and there were also some clear psychological similarities in her siblings. But the brain scans indicated she had also experienced some brain trauma at one time (likely a couple auto accidents), affecting the pre-frontal, temporal and parietal lobes as well.

  But whether it’s one’s boss, significant other, or politicians & public figures, you bet, understanding these mechanisms and recognizing the behaviors is invaluable. I just personally find it more useful to also try and understand what the world must look like from the point of view of the individuals living these “states of mind”. And in the case of NPD/BPD, it’s well known that these folks have an uncanny ability for sensing and manipulating the weaknesses and emotional needs of others, so understanding the psychological dimension is also helpful in assessing my role and behaviors in attracting them.

  Finally, my own interest lately is in the possibility that there may also be specific neurological links to various cultures too. No intention to “diss” anyone here, but for example, am struck by how many of the typical attributes and cultural values of folks of Scots-Irish descent (a.k.a. “Ulster Scots”, “Hillbillies”, etc.), fit characteristics usually associated with over-active cingulate/decreased pre-frontal and temporal lobe activity, including:
  - Oppositional, adversarial
  - Inflexible/rigid behaviors and codes
  - Cyclic periods of calm alternating with intense aggressiveness
  - Frequent ADD/ADHD
  - Trouble learning from experience
  - Noisy or hyperverbal
  - A xenophobic, “outsider” culture, with a sense of being “special” (the “original” Americans, God’s chosen people, etc.)
  - “Conflict seeking” and “fixed thinking” (Think “Hatfields & Mccoys”)
  - Strong aversion to crowds/urban density (rural “hillbilly” culture)
  - Addictive personality (over-eating/poor diet, high use of cigarettes, alcohol/moonshine, meth, etc.)
  - Impulsivity & risk-taking (“live for today”, poor money management, high rates of STD’s & teen pregnancies, love of firearms, frequent trouble with the law, speeding, “motorsports”, NASCAR, 4X4′s, ATV’s, etc.

  Add a reputation for a certain amount of “inbreeding”, along with either very lax or else authoritarian parenting (high control/low support) associated with attachment disorders, and you have a whole culture perpetuating not only certain values, but also the genetic brain pre-dispositions along with it. BTW, the values of this particular cultural group have been well-documented in books like “Albion’s Seed”, by David Hackett Fischer, and “Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America” by James Webb. But I can also think of other cultural groups that could just as easily be explained from a neurological perspective as well.

• 36 swivelchair // Feb 23, 2009 at 10:51 am

  M, just to follow up on some of your points:

  Understanding the behavioral “phenotype” is like being an anthropologist. I mean, it’s like noting, “on the island of NPD, the natives view others in the context of power, and refuse cooperation if they see no immediate benefit from it, nor punishment if they decline.” Someone should write a book like that.

  Sheesh, so, no wonder your ex had brain trauma — with a predisposition toward Nascar. :O But interesting about the dementia angle. It’s like personality disorders are dementia without the memory loss.

  On the books you reference — I think I saw an interview with the authors of one of those books — talking about how the southern US folks seem to have a lawlessness about them leading to clannish societies. It’s really the nature-nurture question: if you’re raised by Marlboro smoking Nascar Drivers do they make you who you are? Or will you be born a Marlboro smoking Nascar driver? Probably both, and moreover, it’s not straight Mendelian genetics.

  Did you see that the McCoys had von Hippel Lindau disease, causing adrenal tumors? It was thought that these tumors caused extreme anger and aggressive hostility. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17967965/

• 37 Mateo // Feb 23, 2009 at 11:44 am

  Interesting stuff re: the McCoys (and you have to wonder about the Hatfields?). Also, understood re: nature/nurture, etc. and there are other variables. But if a culture continually emphasizes certain behaviors, it would seem that they’re also reinforcing/self-selecting the ones that are genetically/neurologically linked. Just as evolution favors certain successful characteristics, except in humans, our “cultural values” help decide which traits are “successful”. Reward “education”, you gradually get a smarter group; reward for aggression and “NASCAR”, you get something else.

  Love the analogy with anthropology and the idea of describing various native types or “cultures”, and especially the book idea. But to really sell, you’d probably have to dress it up in contemporary self-help lingo, perhaps with a title something like, “Narcissists are from Pluto, and Stalkers are from Uranus: a neurological guide to the difficult personality types in your life”…!

• 38 swivelchair // Feb 24, 2009 at 10:32 pm

  “Narcissists are from Pluto, and Stalkers are from Uranus: a neurological guide to the difficult personality types in your life”…!
  LOL! I’m stealing that title!

  Re – natural selection for angry people who do take unnecessary risks and do dangerous things and have an inability to form social bonds
  Maybe it’s the culture that encourages it, but at some point there would be a rate limiting reproductive step even in surviving infancy.

• 39 Mateo // Feb 25, 2009 at 7:35 am

  “..but at some point there would be a rate limiting reproductive step even in surviving infancy.”
  Perhaps, unless they have lots of kids and generally multiply like rabbits (which statistically this cultural group happens to do).

  “I’m stealing that title!”
  Cool, now we just gotta get Oprah to mention it…!!

• 40 swivelchair // Feb 26, 2009 at 11:07 am

  Could be that there is a cultural and inheritance predisposition.
  Two genes come to mind:
  A vasopressin receptor, “Genetic variation in the vasopressin receptor 1a gene (AVPR1A) associates with pair-bonding behavior in humans”
  http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=18765804
  and a dopamine receptor allele with an extra 7 repeats in it:
  “Parenting quality interacts with genetic variation in dopamine receptor D4 to influence temperament in early childhood,”
  http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=1377200

  The awsome thing about the title is that Pluto isn’t even a planet any more, it’s a. . .whatever.

• 41 Mateo // Feb 26, 2009 at 1:02 pm

  You’re right, how appropriate (and Pluto’s also now considered a dwarf or “incomplete” planet!), but re: “Uranus”, I don’t think we even wanna go there!

• 42 Lostsoul // Mar 16, 2009 at 4:42 am

  Hope someone can give me a clue about all this.I just want to understand better this person.
  It comes out like this.I new a guy at work whom i liked a lot and told him but he had a girlfriend although he liked the fact that i liked him.I am the one that has stalking tendencies although i never really make them true ( i control myself).I just became obsessed by him and wanted to know more.More than it was correct to know but I never had any conduct that could distress him.I just searched on the internet…The thing is that at first i was the obsessed and he just seemed to pass.
  I got out of the job, therefore saw him no more.The last day I gave him my mail so that he send me some last papers of the job but he didnt gave his back (he really looked at me as if he had gotten rid of a great charge,and really acted as if he gave me the email i wouldnt stop stalking him).
  So I thoght ok i loved u but i´m not going to give you the chance to feel sorry for me.I did a great effort and never called him again.
  And what do you think happened then?He is the one who makes calls , identifies himselfs , puts music on the phone,calls names only both of us used as jokes but doesnt really let me stablish contact.He is just calling to tell me he is there .
  I still like him so really I dont mind his calls at all ( I mean if he is a stalker he is a stupid one because i like him).I have a feeling that he liked me going behind him and that he does all this calls( that really distress me after 5 years of knowing and trying to get over him)but isnt upfront about things and tells me to go out.He doesnt love me , he wants me to pursue him.COuld that be true?

  Someone answer me because I do not understand this guy.I´ve always been very clear with him.He just plays strange games.

• 43 swivelchair // Mar 16, 2009 at 9:11 am

  OK: Something new here, I’m going to attempt to give out relationship advice, and I’m the last person who should ever be doing this, so if anyone else wants to jump in, please do. But here goes:

  Lostsoul, this individual doesn’t want a healthy relationship, he wants a dopamine hit. People who play games do so for a reason: imo, it’s dopamine, or possibly a lack of vasopressin sensitivity. Where you can’t feel bonded love (vasopressin) you get off on power (dopamine). Avoid him like he was covered in cactus spines that prevented any other living thing from getting close because emotionally that is what is going on.

  And as far as your own dopamine hit, it’s temporary. Even if you have the dopamine-hots for him now, think about it: what would you do if you caught him? Change him? Forgetaboutit. He’d still be weird and you wouldn’t trust him. A leopard doesn’t change his spots, and a dopamine junkie doesn’t change his receptors. If he has vasopressin receptor problems, no amount of human contact in the world will change that. Plus, he sounds manipulative. This could be a white matter disconnect to parts of the brain allowing compassion. All in all, if this individual not only is not interested in you but then expresses interest only in a manipulative way calculated to avoid a healthy relationship, there are some brains cells and chemicals that have taken a serious left turn.

  Also, under no circumstances would I ever recommend a surrepetitious oxytocin spray up the nose in order to biochemically trick him into feeling love, forgetaboutit. The half-life of oxytocin is about three minutes and if you were married for say, 50 years, you’d be forced to squirt oxytocin about 9 million times. Too much work. You could hire someone, but that would be expensive, and who knows, he might end up feeling strongly about the help, which would defeat the whole purpose. Plus he’d probably catch on.

  Find someone else. The easiest thing to do is go out, have a great time, be around people who you really get along with, and move on. Block his calls and e mails. Don’t rationalize any kind of need for him. If it escalates to harassment then call law enforcement.

  Your brain is better than that. Good for you for recognizing “stalking” tendencies. If you have insight into your own behavior, that is a good sign. Some people lack the brain cells or connections to have self-insight. If you are concerned about any kind of mental health issue see a professional.

  So, if you get with Mr. Dopamine-Vasopression-white matter challenged, know what you’re getting into, and know that this may fulfill a neuro-need of your own.

  With hopes you block his texts and mark his e mail as spam, Swivelchair

• 44 Lostsoul // Mar 17, 2009 at 12:53 am

  Thankyou swivelchair.I knew he was playing with me.But because I also have this tendencies you always have that need to think it would come out right.Its tough and its a real fight because of my own way of being .Five years of hope, that it would come out in something right its too much.I´m sure he will never become harmful , he has no need to , and its very intelligent.But I ask myself does he really understand he is hurting me.I mean apart from his own satisfaction could it be that he likes torturing me that way, feeding my hopes for nothing.

• 45 swivelchair // Mar 17, 2009 at 8:11 am

  Lostsoul, five years?

  I hope you find your soul, Swivelchair

• 46 Queen Nubia // May 29, 2009 at 7:15 pm

  I am having trouble with this concept. I believe that I am stalking a guy that I knew from high school. I recently saw him and we exchanged phone numbers. I call him once a day and he doesn’t answer the phone. I check his facebook page to see if he is online. He invited me to his house for a Barbeque and I knew I shouldn’t have went by there, but I drove by and no one was there. I think about him a lot and it upsets me that he ignores me. I would really just like to move on with the rest of my life and forget about this guy because he is not interested in me at all. He has hurt me in the past in fantastical ways. I want to forget about him so I can enjoy my life without thinking that I am not good enough to be loved because he doesn’t care for me enough to respect me or be kind to me. I question my worthiness when this person ignores me and mistreats me. and I’d like to stop feeling that way. It has always been important to me that he accepts me and thinks that I am attractive (which he has never really done). I feel crazy when I can’t reach him. I am searching for his approval and I can not understand why the way he feels about me matters at all. I want to move on with my life and forget about this guy.

• 47 swivelchair // May 29, 2009 at 10:50 pm

  Queen N., at least you are aware of what you are doing, and know it’s not good for you. That is 99% of the battle, I think. Seriously, get something else going,but you know that already.
  I wonder if you can channel all of that energy into a blog? You know, I tried to find blogs written by stalkers or even any research where stalkers (and not their victims) are studied, and it’s between rare and non-existent. But there seems to be other people like you who may be “stalking” and wanting to stop, but can’t. “stopstalking.com” would be a good one.
  (Usual disclaimer, this is my opinion only, and I’m not a healthcare provider of any kind, just an anonymous blogger, sorry for having to disclaim, but I don’t want to have people think that I’m giving any kind of advice through a blog. . . )

• 48 A.Shamed // Jun 10, 2009 at 3:09 pm

  I am a stalker…..but a sad rather pathetic one. My ex broke off our relationship 4 years ago. I still email him, I apologise, I explain, I still “love” him, I blame myself for the breakup though when I look back I can’t see what I actually did wrong. I’ve never threatened, never would, never have feelings of revenge or wanting to hurt him, never could. I just miss him so much it feels like someone ripped off my right arm when he left and I can’t get over it. Abandonment stuff. But what happened to me was quite unique. I sought help and was told I had this disorder and that, including OCD. Then I found out, after an accident I’d had a brain injury and they say thats why it keeps happening because my brain is literally stuck so its ground hog day for me every day. Its getting better, but it hasn’t stopped. The thing that got me is there is so much advice and help and support [quite rightly] for the victims of stalkers but there just seems to be nothing for those that do it. I saw doctors who dismissed it, some even laughed at it, no one seems to be able to help me. They say I just have to stop or worse just learn to live with it. The point is I can’t live with it and its hard to know where to turn. I tell myself its obsession but it doesn’t help because to me it feels like love. I would never hurt him, in fact I am more in danger than he is because there are times I can only see one way out of this and that really shouldn’t be.

• 49 swivelchair // Jun 11, 2009 at 12:54 am

  A.Shamed, thanks for the comment, and your insight. I agree totally that the medico-psychiatric-research community dropped the ball on this one. (To make it clear, my blog post wasn’t aimed at you, it was aimed at stalkers who seek revenge – maybe an OCD component, but clearly not what you are referring to at all.)
  I’m in the biopharma business, and so my bias is toward meds, rather than “just living with it.”
  Isn’t there a psych med that can help reduce compulsions? IMO, you’re ahead of 90% of the people out there if you recognize your behavior, so don’t give up.
  (Sorry but of course the usual caveat, I’m not a health care provider, or any qualified to give any kind of medical advice, and if you need it, go to a professional — please don’t rely on this blog for medical advice of any sort. . . )

• 50 victom // Jun 11, 2009 at 2:15 am

  I stumbled on your blog whilst searching for insight into why people stalk. It has been really insightful giving me lots of different perspectives.

  My problem is I have a police detective stalking me. He uses his position to ruin my life. Due to the resources he has access to he has distributed dvds of a derogative nature (footage from a camera in a street light out side my house of my husband and I in the bedroom) to everyone he meets, including other police officers. I’m desperate to make this stop but as he is a police detective and I have no physical evidence (I dont have a copy of the dvd, men just say to me I’ve seen your dvd and when I ask them what dvd they just smirk). I have no one to turn to for help, my husband thinks I’ve lost it and I dare not talk to the new friends that I’ve made through college. As I don’t have any physical contact with him, but I know he watches me (I’ve seen him at college etc), I was hoping I could change my behavior, to make him stop.

  This has been going on for over 10 years but is gradually getting worse, it started when I helped his ex girlfriend find happiness in a new relationship after he had ruined her life to the point of her trying to commit suicide (he had among other things told everyone she was a prostitute) and since then I have been his victom.

  As I am a self diagnosed social phobic the rumours that I’m a porn star/prostitute did not effect my life too much until now as I’m now overcoming my phobia and attending college as a mature student, I need to stop this and change my life. Can anyone Please Help or point me in the right direction I know it sounds like I’m mad/paranoid but I’m not I’m just desperate.

• 51 swivelchair // Jun 11, 2009 at 8:05 am

  Victom, I empathize with you and I’m sorry but I’m a blogger — I can’t help you directly. This is the kind of stalker that I was blogging about. These guys are vindictive and can stay at it for 10 + years, and really seem to enjoy it. (Caveat readers, I have no idea who is for real and who is not who posts on this blog so I will respond here as though this is a hypothetical, and of course, don’t take any advice from me or any other anonymous blogger on any material thing in your life, especially your safety).

  The behavior you describe would be actionable, at least in the US. And that means liability. Liability means that taxpayers have to pay for this guys behavior. That mean elected officials who oversee the police dept. are p.o’. they will be held accountable for this guy’s actions.

  I don’t know if that’s a good idea or not, but at if it were me, I’d see a Plaintiff’s lawyer. Sue the government/police dept/individuals? Start with invasion of privacy and go on down the line to abuse of power, defamation, slander, false light, interfering with prospective advantage, intentional infliction of emotional distress etc.

  Let me finish the thought process of the stalker: “Heh. I’ll just make her life even worse! This is a challenge!” But, if you sue both individuals as well as the department, having money on the line seems to be a big deterrent with vindictive stalkers at least in my orbit. Here’s stalker algebra:

  Losing money > enjoyment from getting even for someone who’s called me out on my atrocious behavior

• 52 victim // Jun 11, 2009 at 10:56 am

  If I start getting the law involved I don’t know what he would do. I don’t always want to be a victim (I’m not in any other part of my life) but I am scared for my life, he has said howhe could “interfere with my gas cooker to make it look like an accidental explosion” needless to say I’ve become obsessive about the smell of gas. He also followed me on my bike and said he would of knocked me off if he could of got away with it. I know all of this as he made friends with a work coleague of mine who he emailed footage of myself and husband etc. He told my work coleague that if he ever got caught he would just say it was the stress of the job, be put into a mental facility for a couple of months, get a “nice golden handshake and pension”, then set up his own surveilance/security business and carry on.

  I no longer work for that company and when I emailed this ex-work coleague he denied everything and I know his computer was changed before I left the company.

  I know I’m rambling but I feel trapped and helpless and worst of all I don’t know how to protect my family other than to keep them ignorant.

• 53 victim // Jun 11, 2009 at 12:08 pm

  I know this is all very surreal and I understand you are finding this “mad woman” hard to believe, but I thankyou for your advice. As I said earlier your blog has given me some new insight and I will also look into other cases of police misusing their position and the subsequent outcome.
  Thanks again.

• 54 swivelchair // Jun 11, 2009 at 10:04 pm

  Victim, I think everyone should be issued a camera phone at birth. Start carrying one. Film this. Upload it to “Hollaback” in your town if it’s linked.
  Or upload it onto YouTube.
  Secrecy is the hallmark of abuse. Shine a light on it.

• 55 Myers // Jun 12, 2009 at 2:13 pm

  I’m not a stalker, but I understand their reasons. The violent ones, anyway…

  Victim, on the off-chance that you are being entirely truthful, stalking of that severity probably will become violent, especially if you take action against him. My professional advice would be to get some protection, a taser gun or mace, and some blinds for your windows. Then, completely ignore him and any of his attempts at instilling fear.

  Stalking is his game, and the prize is your attention. If you deny him that, you’re winning. Consequently, he’ll be forced to cede his advances. Or, more likely, he’ll become desperate and more aggressive. Should you get lucky, he’ll make a mistake where you could relinquish solid evidence and take action. Unfortunately, he could become violent.

  Or, you could always play unfairly and ruin his life before he ruins yours. Be creative. Whoever said there were rules, anyway?

  Swivelchair, I’m not sure if you’d want my opinion on stalking. I have the necessary personality disorder, but I lack the motivation.

• 56 ANONYMOUS MISDEMEANOR // Jun 16, 2009 at 10:07 am

  very intersting comments.. being involved in a dual stalking relationship , being beat to the punch and arrested recently.. has anyone ever heard of both people stalking eachother and being equally obsessed..?

  this was my situtaion and im so embarassed to admit i got arrested.. and charged with a 1st degree misdemeanor.. i was strangely liking the fact he followed me.. in following me though he saw my obsession for him which in turn made him more obsessed. anyone link me to a link or articles speaking of this unique situtaion ?

• 57 ANONYMOUS MISDEMEANOR // Jun 16, 2009 at 5:58 pm

  how recently? Feb?

• 58 Stalker // Sep 24, 2009 at 5:43 am

  I was a stalker – I spied and bugged my ex wife for almost a year before being caught. I sent anonymous mails to her containing private things she did. Why ? Anger at the split, walked away with nothing after 17 years (no third party involved), saddness and hurt how she could carry on with new partners so quickly. I am sorry and ashamed at what I did and receiving help to move forward. Looking back at my feelings at the time I just wanted to hurt her like she had hurt me and could not control or direct my anger and saddness. My adcice to anybody who feels like this – go to your doctor and get help – do not follow or stalk – find other ways to direct you feelings. Love can be a killer and you have to move on. By the way the fact she always talked to me about her boyfriends (we had kids so had to keep in touch) did not help and I should have said “don’t tell- it hurts still” instead of pretending to be Ok with it.

• 59 eric // Sep 24, 2009 at 7:26 am

  comment

• 60 swivelchair // Sep 24, 2009 at 8:47 am

  Stalker, thanks for the comment. I can’t tell, but you sound a little astonished, looking back at your behavior objectively and intellectually, as though you were reading a book about someone else.

  Your comments — about receiving nothing, about not having a third party involved, about how your ex seemed to intentionally ( or maybe recklessly) hurt you by discussing new boyfriends — indicates to me that there is an “even-steven-fairness” element, sort of an algebraic equation of “1 hurt = 3 nasty e mails” or something like that. (Not to pick on you, at all, but just to use shorthand here). There is an undercurrent of explanation of how she done you wrong, and presumably, justified your stalking at some level until you were otherwise educated that there are other responses to this provocation. Jumping with both feet to conclusions that are probably unjustified, it seems that there is an inability to perceive that she may be thinking things, and have a perspective that may have some rationale to it.

  That struck me because “getting even” isn’t automatic — some people would take a bottle of Jack Daniels and listen to George Jones music all weekend feeling sad instead of being angry and getting revenge via stalking behavior. Social rejection and withdrawal.

  Other people get angry and want to get even — maybe by stalking. There is a part of the brain that deals with fairness and that has to do with perspective taking, and understanding “intentionality” in others. If you assume negative intentions of others as a default position (“dames — they just want your money!”), you’re probably going to have a hard time in life (not picking on you, this is an exaggeration to make a point). (I’m biased, having been the target of a stalker).

  Determining the intentions of others can lead to revenge-seeking behavior to settle the score. There are studies, for example, where $100 dollars is given to one person — who then gives whatever amount to the test subject, take-it-or-leave-it. The test subject can keep it and get free money –hey, free money is all good, right? Or, the test subject can turn it down — and then no one gets any money.

  Where the test subject is offered $2, they do guess what? Turn down the free money, based on perceived unfairness of getting only $2 whereas the other person keeps $98. Where it’s $40, they keep it. A 60/40 split is perceived as fair.

  Where it’s a robot who arbitrarily gives out the $2, the test subjects keep it. No unfairness perceived.

  Autistic spectrum folks keep the $2 no matter what. (I’ve oversimplified all this). Autistic spectrum folks have a tough time perceiving Schadenfreude and gloating in others, incidentally. Some people perceive that others are always basking in the misfortune of others, and gloating about their good luck. This is clearly biological.

  My guess is that people who seek revenge, have workplace violence, road rage, all of it are probably wired to perceive injustice and automatically respond with anger. (As opposed to those wired to perceive social rejection, and respond with sadness and George Jones). If you parse the “injustice” there is attribution of “intentionality” on the part of others that really bugs them.

  Stalking is almost the opposite of having autistic spectrum, and being unconcerned with the good fortune of others. It seems to be the view that the perceived good fortune of others is at an injustice to ones self — I’m guessing.

  So that’s why I was focused on OCD. It’s like the inability to be unconcerned with the good fortune of others, sort of a compulsion.

  What is it that makes people want to waste their stalking/getting even/seeking revenge and not move on and have a productive life? There seems to be some wiring that gets people “stuck” in the thought process of “fairness” and therefore getting even.

  Any stalkers out there who care to comment on that?

• 61 Dalmation Puppy // Sep 30, 2009 at 6:15 am

  My girlfriend of 5 years, gave me 15 minutes over the phone to tell me no more. I’m a passionate person, and my loyalty got in the way when I saw her in a bar with another man three weeks later. I confronted them, then drove to her apartment, then sent her friends emails. A week later, I went to her house stinking drunk and while crying behind her car I got up, slipped and damaged the car. My head hit the pavement pretty hard, I ran that night. I had been getting help before then, but I relapsed. This behavior is not me and I got even more help since then. I let go of all the hate and rage inside me and I am getting on with my life. In 26 years, I have never felt or though those things. I regret everything I did to scare another person to that degree. I blew any chance of being with her again. I plan on righting every wrong I have ever done in this world to every person I’ve done it to. Stalking even when done just once is wrong. When you feel these things call someone, anyone and they will help you see the light. I have learned more about myself in one night than in 1 year. I will never do that again, because it only made things worse, it will always make things worse. Learn that it takes time to fall in love with someone and it takes someone to fall out of love. If they leave you then its their loss, because you are better than stalking. If something was meant to be, then it was meant to be, don’t force it. Fill your time with activities, write letters, exercise, go out with friends, ask that girl out you never had the courage to, join a interest group or church. Because when she does come back, you’ll be in a better place. Someone mentioned John Lennon earlier, he wrote a lot of good things, my personal favorite is “all you need is love, love is all you need” I let go of all the hate inside me, and I filled it with love and I’m asking that girl out tomorrow and if she shes no then I’ll understand and move on. Don’t stalk its wrong and its illegal, believe me I’ve been there, people are here to help and the sun will come up tomorrow.

• 62 swivelchair // Oct 1, 2009 at 12:24 am

  Hey DP, whoa. What I get from your post is that your natural response was rage and hate, and that you had to cognitively learn — go to the frontal lobes the part that does trigonometry — to stop.. Thanks for the cautionary tale — we just had a really sad situation in my town involving a family annihilation, due to rage and hate. This has got to stop. I don’t even know where to start getting this to stop.

• 63 Christine // Dec 24, 2009 at 4:47 am

  llll

• 64 Christine // Dec 24, 2009 at 5:09 am

  I am a stalker and was arrested two months ago for harassing a woman who was my friend and with whom I had a romantic interest. I felt abandoned and rejected when I told her that I was in love with her. At first I tried to get her back by apologizing for my “abusive and jealous preoccupation” with her. When she ignored my phone calls and emails I became enraged and wanted to get back at her.

  The desire to instill fear in her became increasingly worse over time. Then there was a sexual component to it as well. I threatened her and made sexual advances at her via emails. I felt like a cat cornering it’s prey. I was suicidal and had thoughts of killing her and myself. I demanded attention from her – it didn’t matter that it was negative – I wanted her to always be thinking of me.

  I knew it was sick – what I was doing, but I couldn’t stop. I was addicted to the high (it was like a cocaine high) I felt when I knew she was afraid of me. I felt powerful.

  Then I got arrested and had to stop the behavior or I would end up in jail for quite awhile. I have not acted out toward her in two months and am getting help. I still am obsessed with her and fight contacting her on a daily basis. I think she won and I want retaliation. But on the other hand, I want to move on with my life. The only reason I stopped was because I don’t want to serve time because of her. I am still angry. I’m angry that thoughts of her still consume me. I think often that she walked away from our relationship unscathed and I was the only one in pain, so I wanted to inflict pain on her.

  I almost called her the other day because I wanted her to know that she is not free of me. I didn’t though, and I think what stopped me was not only fear of going to jail again, but I know that I am making some progress and to contact her will reinforce the obsession and I will be pulled back into the behavior like a vortex and won’t be able to stop acting out. At least the past two months have given me some distance from her and the obsession, although still strong, it is lessening – although ever so slowly.

• 65 swivelchair // Dec 27, 2009 at 4:43 pm

  Christine – wow. Thanks for your comment, and I hope other “revenge” stalkers read this. Your introspection is admirable and your clarity of thought is very instructive.

  Here’s why your post is instructive: your behavior, on its face, makes no sense. There is no cost/benefit to you; the least cost and most benefit is to cut your losses and moved on for a meaningful relationship (or at least a good time) with someone else.

  To summarize in bio-neuro-psycho speak (shorthand): You don’t feel affective empathy for your target, yet you do have “theory of mind” — you know she thinks things, but you don’t care (except to the extent she feels fear, that you intend). You are concerned with social dominance but only selectively — you need to let your target know you are dominant, even if it risks illegal activity. You enjoy power not in the abstract, but power over her. You have stopped not because of a sudden attack of affective empathy, or even disinterest, or even because stalking is time consuming and you can’t fit it into your schedule. You express no regret or guilt. You seem to take revenge justification as your starting premise: “of course if someone rejects your advances you have a right to get even” — as though a strict Skinnerian response, with no alternative. You have the ability to stop with a strong enough disincentive to continue — significant jail time.

  The question is, is there a biological basis for this? It could have to do with white matter wiring. Biologically, parsing each behavior/thought process into its lowest common denominator:
  1. Lack of affective empathy: Disconnected white matter from limbic system to frontal lobes
  2. Lack of insight (indicated by lack of guilt/remorse): Anosignosia — also a white matter disconnect I think (and common in schizophrenia)
  3. Social dominance orientation: Large striatum/lots of dopamine receptors to fill up
  4. Obsession, inability to let go: Probably not OCD-ish wiring (the OCD stalkers have remorse, feel guilt, and seek forgiveness from their targets); but possibly more of the dopamine-addiction thing. Like a video game addiction involving predation.
  5. Ability to have planning: Frontal lobes OK the ability to follow through with elaborate stalking mechanisms; plus, knowledge that more stalking means longer jail time
  6. Need to demonstrate power — but selectively to target: Possibly oxytocin related, in that oxytocin may induce heightened social awareness. Oxytocin increases feelings of envy or perhaps the perception of gloating (as in, “look – the target is gloating over rejecting me”). This may be negative attributional bias and a misread of social conditions. The distorted response — outlandish demonstrations of social dominance and power but selectively to the target — may be a result of this social mis-read.
  7. Anger as default emotion: Feedback loop from frontal lobes to amygdala is disconnected and could be the white matter weakening in this pathway

  Christine — of course, this is a blog, and who knows who is for real and who isn’t (my usual disclaimer) — but again, there is a dearth of information on the thought processes of a revenge stalker — so thank you for having the courage to speak up.

• 66 pathetic // Feb 21, 2010 at 10:22 pm

  Ok… well, I was in a relationship with someone for 4 years. Who was in the closet and denied me. Even while she was with me. Told everyone I was her cousin and she was single and straight…I felt like I had been the one pushed back in a closet…I didn’t trust her… I don’t know why I stayed … it felt so right when we were together… I felt she only came around when she wanted something. And she was slowly. Turning the relationship into a one sided situation …me being the one having to understand that she couldn’t come out bc her family didn’t except it ….then it was she doesn’t know if she’s gay anymore

  I put her on a pedestal. Bc she was special to me and she wanted to feel like she was most important…ishe liked surprises and gifts and I sacrificed a lot to make sure she was happy bc dealing with the rest of the relationship hurt me on a regular basis…. I would call her and she would be whispering to me in hallways. Bc her family and friends were around …and constantly tell me we have no future together. But we stayed together ..
  I lost control of my emotions …. I emailed her friend and told her I wasn’t her cousin…I told her mom. That I wasn’t stalking her ( that’s whhat she told her mom). I have threatened todamage her car in the past. I. Threatened to have her mom deported. ( her mom is married to my uncle). … she told me we were taking a break to figure things out with us …..I was doing great. I was meeting new friends. A week goes by and she emails me. One thing leads to another and she tells me she met someone a week later…..
  I was physically and emotionally sick …I found out her call logs and got 2 numbers of 2 different guys and started calling them asking them who was sleeping with my gf …I went crazy … I lost my self respect when I agreed to get back together in the closet …. she always had the perfect excuses of why things had to be this way .. I always paid for everything. All I ever wanted was for her to give us a real chance .. …when she would go out with people I would call over and over again …sometimes she wouldn’t come home. I would drive by her house. I would pull up beside her when she got home. And freak out ..I don’t know how I got to this point..she put everyone before me. Everytime one of us was ready to leave. We would bring eachother back …we knew it was hard but we wouldn’t let go … when she let go I already knew once she graduated. Graduate school she would leave me and that’s exactly what she did and went out and made a whole froup of friends and never even considered bring me around them ….I stalked her for a year while we were together ..and when she put her foot down to leave for good. ..I felt I never got back what she promised. That I put up with all this heartache for her to just walk away…its hard. There’s nothing more I could have done to show her I loved her … I think she used me. That I was a convience for her …I made myself a doormat. And when she left I lost control … for awhile I questioned my own sexuality I struggled with it … someone that I loved and looked up to couldn’t live this way. Why do I think its ok? I was never ashamed of who I was …but constantly hearing that her familys opinions and hers tore me down ..I felt gross … I was a stalker …I called people I don’t even know …that is crazy!!!!
  My mom hurt me when I was younger. She always treated my other sisters better than me. Its like I made her disguisted… she would always be nice to me when she wanted something from me and when she got it she would be mean …when my ex got what she wnated she would leave … I lashed out when I was younger always trying to make my mom proud of me never worked. Nothing I could do would make her love me like she loved my sisters … i don’t know how this pattern turned this way… when I’m trying to be rational. I say my ex is important to have in my life ….my craziness tells me I’m in love with her. Even though she does nothing for me and I want her back …

• 67 swivelchair // Feb 25, 2010 at 12:43 am

  Hey P: (usual caveats) — Not a shrink or a doctor, etc. get some healthcare, etc., and don’t know who’s for real on this blog.

  Was your stalking to hurt her or to try to convince her to come back?

• 68 Christine // Feb 25, 2010 at 4:03 am

  I haven’t seen the woman I stalked for 3 months (That was in court) or talked with her for a year. I had to go to court recently to be offered a plea bargain for stalking charges against me. It wasn’t the fear of my punishment, or the fear of the consequences for breaking a no contact order several times, but it was seeing her again that caused me to have physiological responses of fear. As soon as I saw her walk in the courtroom, my heart began to pound out of my chest and everything became a blur. She still has that much emotional power over me and I am angry at her because of it. I’m angry because she rejected me and at one point when the stalking was at its worst I wanted to kill her. I contemplated it for months. But when I saw her, I felt sad that I harrassed her for so long and for the toll it has taken on her emotionally and physically. I wanted to tell her I was sorry, I wanted to hold her.

  That was three days ago. My case is continued again. I have not stopped obsessing about her since, not that I ever really have, but its worse now since seeing her. I love her, but I hate her. I vacillate between wanting to lash out at her and feeling sorry for what I’ve done. I think I mainly feel sorry that she’s not in my life, not so much for her. My rage is contingent upon her response or my perception of her response so isn’t that self serving?

  I did break the no contact order seven times spread out over three months ( a great reduction in contact) and she never reported me. I speculate over and over again as to why she hasn’t. I think she still cares about me, then I think she’s afraid to report me in fear it may escalate my rage and then I think she is worn down. If I think she wishes me well, then I want to leave her alone. If I think she feels contempt for for and feels she has power over me and that she won this battle, then I want to instill fear in her out of retaliation.

  I hate that I am still preoccupied with her and that she consumes most of my mental energy – and I have a lot of that. I have been getting professional help and am in a 12 step program and am working on myself, but I am still obsessed and think of ways to keep a connection with her, some how, some way. Even with lots of help I’m struggling, I can’t imagine the outcome if I wasn’t getting the help.

• 69 swivelchair // Feb 25, 2010 at 3:01 pm

  Christine – can you put yourself in her perspective? What do you think she is thinking? Is it tough for you to take the perspective of another?

• 70 Christine // Feb 25, 2010 at 4:23 pm

  Intellectually I can understand that she must be frightened and exhausted. She probably doesn’t feel safe even though for the most part I have left her alone for the past three months. Probably she’s experiences some symptoms of PTSD.

  She may have asked herself how she became involved with me in the first place.

  In all honesty, I cannot or have difficulty in connecting feelings toward her or am able to grasp that she has feelings in reaction to my behvior. I think she is a rock and impervious to my harassment, but what I may be seeing is my own reflection.

• 71 swivelchair // Feb 25, 2010 at 8:46 pm

  Christine, when the part of your brain that does trigonometry sits down down and cognitively things about it you get that she’s terrified. But, when emotion takes over it’s almost like you are in attack mode. You don’t sound like you enjoy instilling fear (unlike other stalkers) , but rather want to force her to recognize you or something along those lines. What’s up with that do you think?
  Other stalkers above (I mean who knows, this is a blog for goodness sakes) but other stalkers above said they were diagnosed with OCD. It almost seems like after a while there is some sort of habit or compulsion, that just gets hard wired into your brain that maybe you don’t even understand, and then you just sort of try to explain it away (like, “Yes, I must be in love, that must be it!”) or something.
  Is this getting close or sounding familiar? Just wondering if OCD prescriptions would do the trick.

• 72 Christine // Feb 26, 2010 at 6:03 am

  It isn’t an either or situation. Yes it is true that when emotion takes over I go into attack mode, but there were long periods of time while actively stalking her I was on a high from the enjoyment of making her terrified. I knew she was scared, I read about it when I hacked into her email, but I kept wanting to make it worse for her, I wanted to escalate her fear – it made me feel powerful and alive. I thrived on it. I wanted to keep beating her down. But when I saw her recently in the court room, I saw her as vulnerable and felt a little sad for her. In my mind since then, I vacillate between feeling sad for her and wishing I could still harass her. It was a lot of fun.

  I’ve never been diagnosed with OCD, although one of the meds I was on was Prozac to control my obsessions and compulsions. It didn’t work. I have been diagnosed with Borderline Personality disorder with antisocial features. I’m not convinced I’m antisocial because I’m too self- conscious and care too much what others think of me.

  I believe it has become a habit – an addiction – and is hardwired in my brain. I am trying to rewire it by doing other actions and with CBT, but this is – hands down – the most difficult addiction I’ve had to deal with. I was cocaine and alcohol addicted, but haven’t used either substance in years.

• 73 swivelchair // Feb 26, 2010 at 8:54 am

  C-
  And again, caveat caveat caveat, I’m not a shrink or any kind of healthcare person, and plus this is a blog so who knows who’s for real etc.. . .

  Have you had a brain scan? Or any gene scan? Just curious — if you comment back: “Oh yes, my diffusion tensor imaging scan shows my white matter has wobbly portions between my amygdala and orbitofrontal cortex, and my vasopressin receptor allele is the “334″ variant, and my CD38 variants are all over the place leading me to believe my oxytocin receptors in my hippocampus are simply stuck in first gear and I have a dopamine receptor 4 – 7 repeat variant and I have the MAOA and 5-HTTPLR variants found with an inability to use serotonin efficiently and that pesky mu opioid variant that gives rise to cravings and pain sensitivity” well, the social neuro-scientists would all say, “No wonder this individual went into the coke and came out a stalker. You couldda predicted something like this. Christine is biologically loaded to go down this path.”

  Here’s my wish: There are a zilllion books on how to be amoral for the power hungry. The Art of War. The Prince. The entire Dwight Schrute-ish genre of ninja-jingoism and worse. How about how the best arguments for the amoral to stop stalking ex girlfriends and actually do something productive for society? I’m tired of my tax dollars being wasted on the 2-3-4% of the population that has to stalk/harass/have little vindictive plots that get people fired and put them on unemployment and get their kids off of health insurance so I end up paying for that again. Enough. This doesn’t even begin to mention those who work the system to end up in the executive suite or financial services. Christine, help. How to deal with the low-on empathy, high on intelligence (that you seem to be), supersized on emotional response, thrill/predatory seeking?

• 74 Christine // Feb 26, 2010 at 2:11 pm

  I’ve never had a brain scan. How much would that actually reveal? I don’t have an answer, but I do know that I grow weary of constantly trying to go against the grain in attempt to be like the empathic and altruistic. It only leaves me with a larger void and disconnect but sharper acting skills.

• 75 swivelchair // Feb 26, 2010 at 2:29 pm

  Thanks for the response – good luck.

• 76 Vincent // Mar 1, 2010 at 3:23 am

  I fancied this girl a lot and by chance I got to know her, she is 20 I m 35.

  I asked her out and told her how much I like her but she said she’d rather be friends, We used to hang together we kissed each other and she used to share a lot of intimate stuff(like illness of her parents etc).
  I got to miss her so much and care for her.

  After about 3 moths of us talking etc.
  I just receive a massage Dont’ talk to me anymore. When I asked her what happened she reported me to the police whic told me not to contact her.

  And I can’t forget her and have a lot of guild feelings. We used to talk a lot and now she says with everyone that I harass her and have been doing it from the day I first saw her.

  I try not to send her emails etc and its hard for me as I think of her with tenderness and we were so close, and I know I didn’t mess up.

  I saw her after 3 months and went up to her and said helo and she made a report to the police.

  I know I m harassing her if she does not like my company but how can somone first be so willing and smilling and kissing, hugging and being very intimate and than acts like that. She knew that I cared?

• 77 swivelchair // Mar 1, 2010 at 8:08 pm

  v-
  The usual caveat: This blog provides no healthcare advice, we are not healthcare professionals, get a professional if you need one, and we have no idea who anyone is or if any one is for real or not.
  Let’s assume all your facts are in order and that there are no confounding facts, and out of the blue, for no reason whatsoever, this person tells an angel, caring, philanthropist and humanitarian like you to keep out and calls the cops every time you approach. For no reason whatsoever.

  Your response:
  a) She’s a loon, Vince throws away all memories and items having to do with her
  b) Vince wears dark glasses and a wig every time he has to go in her neighborhood but other than that stays as far away as possible
  c) He’s in love and just can’t get enough so he sends her e mails and just goes and takes a little peep just to check on her now and then. He knows for sure he is in the right, and that she will come around and see his way, if he just keeps up the e mails and calls and of course, there’s nothing to apologize for after all, Vince is totally in the right and the girl is a complete loon and in the wrong, wrong, wrong, and if she just let him help her, he wouldn’t be harassing her. .
  d) wha?

  See?

• 78 Vincent // Mar 2, 2010 at 1:48 am

  I dont’t think she a complete loon, probably her family told her I m too old and would get her in trouble and she just choose the most considerate path.

  If she liked me she would have been more clear in her feelings, its this mindgames that push you to get obseessed. I remeber asking myself what happening.

  She must have had her reasons the problem is that she did not tell me (when at the same time we where intimate), just hang up on me and that winds up you your mind.

  Not that anyone is obliged but one should care.
  I think that comunication can solve a lot of issues, before one looses trust in one another.

  Its just some poeple take it too much this harassing and fear when probably its fear cause they have said lies etc during the relationship and are afraid that everything will sum up.

  No one has the right to judge etc but I think if one is clear in a relationship of anykind a lot of misunderstandings that lead to obsessions and harassments could be avoided.

  The most important thing i learened is that to repect each other freedom.

  And that if someone is afraid of you its better to just stay away as its impossible to show you care without making the situation worse.

• 79 swivelchair // Mar 2, 2010 at 12:38 pm

  Thanks Vincent –

  No one has the right to judge etc but I think if one is clear in a relationship of any kind a lot of misunderstandings that lead to obsessions and harassments could be avoided.

  If someone tells you to stay away from them, stay away. That couldn’t be more clear.

• 80 Vincent // Mar 8, 2010 at 3:30 am

  thanks a lot

  somewhere I read this and its the way its close to what happened to me,

  “Obsessive relationships are not hard to create. Bob will become obsessed if Jane tells him to leave her alone while at the same time she is telling Bob she loves him and they were meant to be together. Bob will get even more obsessed when he hears that Jane has told Bob’s friends how much she loves him, what a jerk he can be and she just can’t be with him. Most guys like Bob might say “Forget it!”, but Bob will start to feel more and more like repairing the relationship if Jane continues to intrude into his life. ”

  I encountered quite some people doing the stuff above that get complicated for no reason, especially girls like to attract attention just to see the siutors break obviosly I’ m generalising.

  As I said before it is not an excuse to harass people because everyone is free but its good to be fair, on others feelings.

• 81 swivelchair // Mar 8, 2010 at 8:21 am

  V- Good luck (and I hope your nom-de-net doesn’t indicate that you chopped off an ear in this entire process)

• 82 Vincent // Mar 10, 2010 at 12:04 am

  probably you are right, and I watch too much films. Thanks for the discussion