Neurological correlates of aggressive, hostile-type stalking: the cognitive inflexibility and source memory impairment of OCD topped off with a lack of self awareness.
I didn’t realize January is National Stalking Awareness Month assuming HR Resolution 46 (January 2009) is passed:
Whereas an estimated 1,006,970 women and 370,990 men are stalked annually in the United States and, in the majority of such cases, the person is stalked by someone who is not a stranger;
Whereas 81 percent of women, who are stalked by an intimate partner, are also physically assaulted by that partner, and 76 percent of women, who are killed by an intimate partner, were also stalked by that intimate partner;
Whereas 74.2 percent of stalking victims reported that the stalking partner interfered with their employment, 26 percent of stalking victims lose time from work as a result of their victimization, and 7 percent never return to work;
Whereas stalking victims are forced to take drastic measures to protect themselves, such as relocating, changing their addresses, changing their identities, changing jobs, and obtaining protection orders;
Whereas stalking is a crime that cuts across race, culture, gender, age, sexual orientation, physical and mental ability, and economic status;
Whereas stalking is a crime under Federal law and under the laws of all 50 States and the District of Columbia;
Whereas rapid advancements in technology have made cyber-surveillance the new frontier in stalking;
Whereas there are national organizations, local victim service organizations, prosecutors’ offices, and police departments that stand ready to assist stalking victims and who are working diligently to craft competent, thorough, and innovative responses to stalking;
Whereas there is a need to enhance the criminal justice system’s response to stalking and stalking victims, including aggressive investigation and prosecution; and Whereas the House of Representatives urges the establishment of January 2009 as National Stalking Awareness Month. . .
So, why do stalkers stalk? In the national Stalking Victimization Study, victims were asked about a presumed motivation for their stalkers (Table 6). Out of 3,416,460 victims:
- 36.6% said stalker’s motivation was “Retaliation/anger/spite”
- 32.9% said “Control”
- 23.4% said “mentally ill/emotionally unstable”.
So. . . again, why do stalkers stalk — what is this psychopathology?
First, here’s the law enforcement guidelines for “stalking”
Stalking can be defined as a pattern of repeated and unwanted attention, harassment, contact, or any other course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to feel fear.
It is a course of conduct that can include:
- Repeated, unwanted, intrusive, and frightening communications from the perpetrator by phone, mail, and/or email
- Repeatedly leaving or sending victim unwanted items, presents, or flowers
- Following or laying in wait for the victim at places such as home, school, work, or recreation place
- Making direct or indirect threats to harm the victim, the victim’s children, relatives, friends, or pets.
- Damaging or threatening to damage the victim’s property
- Harassing victim through the internet
- Posting information or spreading rumors about the victim on the internet, in a public place, or by word of mouth
- Obtaining personal information about the victim by accessing public records, using internet search services, hiring private investigators, going through the victim’s garbage, following the victim, contacting victim’s friends, family work, or neighbors, etc.
Source: Stalking Resource Center, National Center for Victims of Crime
Fear and intimidation as a means of unleashing vindictive aggressive hostility is probably pretty common. Here’s an instructive article about a Harvard educated lawyer stalked and murdered by an ex. Tragically, this is only one of thousands and thousands and thousands of stories ending in murder of the victim. This woman even worked for a time in a public defender’s office defending domestic violence defendants – she knew the system. She had gotten a protective order against her stalker at the time of her murder. Apparently she had moved across the country, to Seattle, left the law, and got a gig at Microsoft working on gaming to avoid this guy. No matter; he followed her, shot her to death in a parking lot, and then killed himself. (If you go to the link, read the comments. Very scary.)
Putting all of this together, aggressive, hostility-based stalking seems like a deficit in the parietal region, associated with a sense of self as well as self-referential memories. This, combined with a particularly malignant form of obsessive-compulsive disorder (“OCD”). This is just a preliminary connect-the-dots. Finding research is tough — there are no brain scans of stalkers, and the shrinks with behavioral profiles don’t seem to be talking to the imaging departments:
1. Cognitive inflexibility: similar to those with OCD, the fronto-striatal loop seems to be stuck: stalkers so objectify the targets that beyond mere “obsession”, there is a compulsive need to “complete” the stalking.
2. Impairment of “source memory” (memory of where or from whom you learned something): People with OCD have impaired source memory functioning. If you can’t remember who told you something, then no one has credibility, I suppose, and you sort of re-write history to suit your current state of funk. Source memory is pulled out of the right inferior parietal region – an area associated with a sense of “self”.
3. Lack of perspective taking: Stalkers don’t see things from the victim’s point of view. This much is apparent from behavior: they plainly screw things up. If you want a romantic interest to return, you don’t harass them. Why would someone want to be around the person who harasses and intimidates them? I asked a rage-a-holic this once — “What do you think other people think of you when you rage at them?” and this person went stone silent. Stumped. I don’t think this had occurred to them. I dunno, but seems like a theory of mind deficit, found in the fronto-parietal loop. (That link is an interesting study — putting a transcranial magnet by the brain regions involved in theory-of-mind results in subjects have a tough time figuring out stories about what other people are thinking).
Is anyone out there a stalker? Why do/did you stalk? Why did you stop or is there anything your victim can do to convince you to stop? Was the fear you instilled in your victim satisfactory to you, and in what way? Are you diagnosed with a clinical condition or on psych meds?
I’m serious. What is your thought process?
I don’t expect anyone will answer.
Here’s John Lennon, “Jealous Guy”:
This entry was great. I love how your blog always raises such interesting points that I walk away with dozens more questions.
Forgive me if you find this forward or offensive but do you have a personal reason for your intellectual interest in stalking?
Hey ITW, happy new year — thanks for the kind words and backatcha.
I heard this hypothetical person may be checking in here, or, forwarding this blog with disparaging remarks in order to discredit anything I may have to say about this hypothetical person. So I posted this: http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2009/01/04/to-my-stalker-you-are-a-philanthropist-and-humanitarian/
And I started a huge anti-sociopath activism movement, it’s huge. (N=1, me). (My sophisticated branding department (me) even made a logo, in the left column ).
Coincidentally, after the first post, BOJS released a huge statistical analysis of stalkers and victims, and there’s a proclamation for National Stalking Awareness Month.
Thanks for the comment – I’ve been catching up on your blog, take care and you should be able to find decent rentals for cheap in this market.
[...] There’s also Get High on Encephalon #62, including some cool posts on Laughing gas and stalking, evolutionary perspectives on personality traits and an interesting one on how apparently more [...]
I’m serious. What is your thought process?
Well, looking back on my behavior, (and I was in therapy at the time), I was extremely narcissistic, had an abandonment issue with my dad, and had extreme anxiety and depression.
I could not tolerate uncertainty. I thought it would be better to know if he was with her or not. It was sick, I hated it, but I had so much anxiety, I could only fight it so long. Mostly it was just driving down his street to see if he was at home or at work. I did wait for him to come home once. One thing that escalated the problem was that he was indirect in his communication. I also had all-or-none, black and white thinking. I am happy to say I am past it. I started going back to church and the sense of peace I had soothed much of the anxiety. In therapy, I also worked through what was behind the narcissism and was able to love someone, then I could see my behavior through his perspective. Before I was unable to do it.
Lehman, (and I hope your name doesn’t indicate that you are layed off in the financial sector) — Lehman – anxiety trumps empathy every time. Thanks for your comment, and, I’m going to guess that a number of people who either read or stumble on to this blog will relate to your remarks. Blogging is like that, I’ve found. So really, thanks for the comment. And good for you meeting your anxiety and narcissism head on, and moving on with your life.
If I understand, you were trying not to instill fear and intimidation as any kind of vindictiveness, but rather you were trying (in a distorted way) to actually get the person back. Had your ex been direct, like saying “go away” — then you would not have stalked him (if I understand your comment, and the whole binary thought process).
I’m not a shrink by any stretch, but this seems more like abandonment anxiety rather than vindictive stalking. I mean, as distorted as it was, there was a reason for it. If the object of your desire were to say, “I’m wrong, come back to me” you would’ve taken them back and been happy.
I don’t get vindictive stalking. I mean, if you don’t like someone, you get them out of your life, right? Yet, vindictive stalkers actually are controlled by the targets they purport not to like because they spend their own time paying attention to them. Sort of like, “I hate you and you are unworthy of me, so I’m going to take time out of my busy day to pay as much attention to you as possible.” That’s why it seems like there’s an OCD component.
Is/was anyone out there a stalker trying to instill fear into their target? Can you explain it to me?
OK, so I’ll bite.
As a psychotherapist recently diagnosed with OCD who has engaged in some “stalking behaviors” myself, I’m speaking from both personal and clinical experience here.
I began in late February/early March of this year to have obsessive thoughts about my neighbor. It was as if I woke up one day and realized that I could see him through my window, as he had no blinds on his windows, nor did I. This developed into a checking ritual which became increasingly more frequent. I struggled with these thoughts and feelings for months, before finally “cracking” and Emailing him in late June. I felt the need to confess to him, a hallmark of OCD.
Not surprisingly, he did not want to talk to me. He didn’t return Emails, and after a few days, I called him at his office to genuinely apologize for my inappropriate behavior. Shortly thereafter, he/his wife called the police on me. This only served to increase my anxiety, as I became desperate to have him and his wife understand that I was not some dangerous stalker, rather someone who was dealing with an acute anxiety disorder.
Keep in mind that OCD is a clinical syndrome/illness like depression. It’s not something that you ask for or that you can control on your own. I think, in fact, that it’s one of the most misunderstood diagnoses out there. People with OCD by definition have overdeveloped consciences and are typically concerned to the extreme with not hurting others (emotionally and certainly not physically). They tend to be intelligent, sensitive, and caring people who typically put the feelings of others before their own.
Unfortunately, the stalking-like behavior that may accompany this type of OCD usually leads those who come into contact with sufferers to fear that they are “bad” people, either (1) personality disordered or (2) delusional/psychotic. Niether of these conditions has anything at all to do with OCD. Therefore, OCD sufferers are often treated with a great deal of hostility.
Anyway, that’s my take on this. Most people truly are ignorant regarding issues of mental health. I find that the literature on the subject of stalking is waaay slanted to those w/ Antisocial, Narcissistic, or Borderline Personalities or with Delusional Disorders.
Believe me, I’ve read all the literature. Little of it fits me and has been helpful with me in my situation.
The anxiety related to OCD can get so extreme that one may become blinded to the needs and boundaries of others. Oftentimes, people report that it’s like waking up from a bad nightmare to find that you’ve emotionally harmed people while you were ill. This is certainly true in my case.
I feel that I turned a corner right around the New Year, and things have been much better for me since. No contact. I’ve seen him around the ‘hood a couple of times, and he says “hi.” I think the thing next door is over. But I know that I really need to watch it and to stay on the Anafranil I’ve been prescribed.
Any questions, I’m an open book.
P
Oh, and to answer your question, I was never trying to instill fear in my neighbor or his wife. My goal was for them to understand that I WASN’T a sociopath and that they were safe living next door to me. When you can’t communicate, though, things get really difficult.
I honestly don’t understand the wanting to instill fear thing myself.
P
Can you tell that I’m obsessive? Here’s post 3 just in case you can’t:
There was exactly 1 article on the web that I found helpful to me in my situation. It validated what my MD psychiatrist had told me and kept me somewhat sane, anyway, during a very rough several months.
Here’s the link:
http://westsuffolkpsych.homestead.com/ObsessiveLove.html
P
Hi P, and wow. You are like the perfect person to post a comment because you both know the behavior as well as the cause. This makes an easy life for an anonymous blogger.
Thank you for your post and the total clarity in describing your experiences — it does sound like it was a nightmare. Glad things seem to be smoothing over in the ‘hood.
I don’t mean to trivialize your condition, but it sounds a little like that movie, “Rear Window”. http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0047396/plotsummary
There is no OCD literature on stalking (at least that I found), except for popular press “stalking” of “obsessive” fans of celebrities — not the same thing. As you point out, the other literature relates to stalkers who are either delusional, or have aggressive hostility — almost the opposite of OCD.
And thanks for the offer of answering questions, so here’s one: What happens when you don’t satisfy the urge of your compulsion/obsession?
(Please don’t respond if this is too personal, but I do think it is helpful for people to talk about. )
P, our posts crossed at the same time, and I’m going to have to read your link later — thanks for the posts.
Re: Rear Window. Some similarities, yes. Also to American Beauty. I don’t think it’s a coincidence that I became obssessed with the neighbor I could see in plain view day in and day out. It’s not like I went out looking for this, “it” found “me” so to speak.
What would happen when I wouldn’t satisfy my compulsive urges? A few things, actually. Sometimes I would become increasingly anxious. Oftentimes this would lead to an increase in depression and self-loathing, and I’d sometimes take to my bed for hours at a time, hoping and waiting for the thoughts to subside.
Lately, I’ve been fighting against the urge to “do nothing,” and I find that engaging in exercise – I lift light weights, and, in particular, going for a brisk 30-40 minute walk routinely has been healthy for me.
I’m embarassed to admit, too, that I have used drugs to cope with the anxious/depressive feelings. There have been times over the last several months when I have felt so hurt and so misunderstood that I’ve blotted out my feelings in any way I could.
With a combination of the above, I’ve managed to go a month to a month and a half without contact, and I’m right about at that mark now. Only now, I feel that I pretty well have it licked. Here’s hoping so anyway.
And really, if there’s anything anyone can learn from me or that I can learn from anyone else about this experience, I want to learn it. I’ve really been frustrated by the lack of resources and support for those of us who do engage in these behaviors. It was upsetting to me to be lumped into categories that I felt didn’t fit me.
I even tried to describe my experience on one website that was supposed to be for “support” only to have my comments edited out because they were judged to be too “graphic.” All I did was describe the looking at my neighbor part in vague detail, and I was locked out of the site.
There’s a psychosexual angle that I’m probably downplaying here some, but I’ll leave that, along with the rest of my story, for further questions if anyone else has any.
And swivel; you’re welcome and thank you too. The opportunity and ability to share, as I’ve noted, has been far too infrequent.
Hey P,
Yup, exercise is like chicken soup: a little is good, more is better, and too much can’t hurt (usually).
Thanks for keeping your post to “PG”-ratings here and I think people get your drift. With anything, blogs and forums are a tough crowd and people interpret the written word much differently than when it’s spoken.
What struck me about your description, if I understand correctly, is that anxiety/depressive symptoms seems to ebb and flow. There’s a paper that OCD sufferers may have circadian patterns to brain hormones/ neurosteroids. (Link below). (I’m not a shrink or any kind of MD so huge grain of salt here. . . ). Anyway, I wonder if your taking to bed is almost a self-medication of the circadian rhythm of these brain chemicals.
Question: Did you see the film the Aviator? About Howard Hughes? Was that OCD?
http://www.sciencedirect.com/science?_ob=ArticleURL&_udi=B6T8T-4SN92P5-1&_user=10&_rdoc=1&_fmt=&_orig=search&_sort=d&view=c&_acct=C000050221&_version=1&_urlVersion=0&_userid=10&md5=474bd84c9621629026bd74c4641d67ec
No problem. I’m all about PG.
I agree with you re: spoken word. I think the neighbors next door read a lot into some of the Emails that I sent. Not a good way to communicate. Then have the cops tell you, “she thinks you’re a danger to your kids, but you can’t talk about it.”
Anyway, re: The Aviator. I saw it in the theater when it came out. If I’m remembering correctly, it seemed to me that he had a lot of Axis I symptomalogy going on. OCD, yes, in terms of the handwashing and germophobia. Panic disorder w/ agoraphobia for sure. Major depression, severe, perhaps with psychotic sxs. There seemed to be a lot going on with him in the movie.
I hadn’t heard the theory re: circadian rhythms, but it’s interesting. Perhaps that’s part of it. I just know that things have been better the last several weeks, and I feel like I’m on the road to recovery.
Any other questions or thoughts?
I’ll give you some demographic info:
39 y.o. GWM, partnered x 20 years. Have my own private practice. No significant Axis II traits that I’m aware of (ha ha). Tested negative on the MMPI several years ago. Pretty empathic. Maybe too much for my own good. I think that I had a terribly difficult time reconciling what “they thought about me” with the person I knew myself to be. I’m a Myers Briggg INFJ–healer type, yada yada. Obvious self-esteem issues.
Hey P,
Thank you again for your comments, and your insight. And your insight about your insight.
Law enforcement is the first line contact with mental health issues, and probably the least educated. Tragic.
Of course, being unable to explain to others has got to be one of those nightmare scenarios. But, if others are dubious about you, how are you to communicate if you don’t e mail? So there is an entire PR problem.
Yes, the Aviator was about all of that, and it’s interesting to me that you put OCD as probably the least of Howard Hughes’ problems. I wasn’t sure what OCD symptoms were and what was something else.
Feel free to post more remarks, P, I’m going to do some research on OCD and put up a post.
And think about this: the effect your post is probably having on other people.
Seriously, your description of your experiences is very valuable. So thank you for taking the time to post on this sort of out-there blog by an anonymous blogger.
I have to say that I am really impressed with P’s enlightening comments. I googled Stalking and OCD-because I have the uncanny (extremely unpleasant) feeling that someone at work has stalking tendencies, unfortunately directing this towards me! Suffering from OCD myself (and coincidentally studying psychology), I felt that perhaps there is a link between obsessive thinking and stalking.
Apparantly I was right. However, I do not feel that P is a stalker |(sorry P
. Seeing that this would mean that I would have to call myself a stalker- not because I have pestered or threatened anyone, but because I do (like anyone who suffers from OCD) go over things, both in my mind and in conversation with others. Obsessively. And this has lead to phoning people 10 times in a row in the past, or emailing several times JUST TO GET A RESPONSE. In one case it was an ex-boyfriend who just did not get the message across, and had to spell it out to me. But perhaps now I DO sound crazy 
The tendency to doublecheck information is mostly because I need “closure” (at the lack of a better word) and most of my friends/family find it quite amusing/mildly annoying, and in fact my sister has put her phone on silent quite a few times…
I do not seem to bug people that I don’t know, perhaps that would simply be a sign of crossing the line. What I am trying to say is that I basically understand the tendency.
I have made my peace with this so called “disease”- considering that I am from a huge family and about 4 of us have OCD tendencies. Everyone seems to be doing well though, and I am lucky enough not to be on medication. I may pop in to see a shrink once in a while, and will probably find the process of blabbering about anyting on my mind to someone at £60 an hour, both comforting and fulfilling.
To get to the point, P seems to me to be reasonable, rational and empathetic and not like the typical Stalker who according to some of the reading I’ve done lacks social skills, as well as sympathy with the victim, has little emotional intelligence and is manipulative and intrusive.
Which pretty much fits the description of this guy that works with me!! :0
Apologies, I just read P’s comments again (OCD?? huh?
and quite obviously P does not refer to himself as a Stalker, but as his OCD motivated behaviour being misinterpreted as stalking. Something I can associate with/understand.
H, thanks for your comment, and not to complain , but yoo hoo, medical profession, how ’bout some info on OCD and “stalking” loosely defined as the recognized stalking behavior without the malevolent intent?
Is it me, or is the medical profession just not paying attention to some of these behaviors and biological causes? Color me cynical. This seems like a whole lot of trouble for OCD folks to go through, when clear communication and maybe some targeted PR could probably clear up most of the misunderstanding. (Yes, I’m optimistic about acceptance of a neurodiversity movement, probably unrealistically so).
Any health care providers who can point to a web site or something giving OCD folks and their families information? Send it in a comment here, and I’ll put it up on a link in a side bar.
OCD “stalkers” without bad intent aren’t the problem, except to the extent they freak people out unnecessarily. I suppose freaking yourself out may fall into that category
Perhaps OCD folks should be aware that this can be a symptom and perhaps come up with a plan on how to communicate that to others and avoid P’s trouble with law enforcement. I don’t know, but maybe there are patient advocacy groups who can put the word out.
But, H, I disagree with you that “stalkers” are socially maladapted. I am aware of malevolent stalkers who are extremely adept in social circumstances, such that they seem “more normal than normal.” There seems to be an OCD component in the persistent seeking power and control, stuck in some kind of a reward-loop. Different motivation, yet the same.
Are there any former malevolent stalkers out there who want to let us in on what’s the deal? I still don’t get it: if you loathe someone so much, why spend so much of your own valuable time on them?
Hi, it would seem that very little research has been done on OCD sufferers and what may seem like stalking tendencies to the untrained eye. In fact I googled “OCD stalking” and apart from this very informative conversation, very little else popped up. It would be great if more research along these lines could be done. If for nothing else, to make things easier on us.
On the other hand; the opposite seems to be true in that I could not find much relating to stalkers who have been diagnosed with OCD. To clarify “What percentage of those persons who can by all accounts be labelled ‘Stalkers’ , i.e. are receiving treatment for stalking behaviour/have restraining orders against them, as also suffering from OCD?”. Some information (if there is any!) on this would also be very useful to me.
Please note that I am really mainly referring to the more persistent types of stalkers like the intimacy seeker or rejected stalker who apparently also do not tend to resort to violence.
Example: Person A at work (let’s call this a case study (although I am by no means a “medical professional” in any way, and all of this is really just a hunch!) undoubtedly suffers from OCD (ironically I realized this because I have some of the same OCD tendencies).
Person A’s behaviour in a nutshell: attempts to get as much personal information relating to me as possible (without seeming suspicious). For instance sending a friend request on “facebook” within a month of me starting work there and without even having had a proper conversation (also not having added anyone else at work, although being there for at least two years), is extremely anxious about when my contract may expire and I may “leave”- and on average asks me once a week when I “reckon this may be”, checks my calendar, gets visually distressed when I ignore him, pays no attention to the fact that I have a boyfriend (even having met him at work party), attempts to persuade me in (what he must perceive as cunning) ways to spend time with him after work (elaborate stories about needing another team mate at work related extramural activities), strategically plans exactly what he will say to me and never wanders over spontaneously- instead seeking excuses to be near me, always approaches me when no one else is around, at one point started getting up and ready to go home around the time I would, and attempted to casually “stroll” with me to the bus stop…the list is long.
“This” has been going on for 7 months, and I fear may continue for at least as long as I work there and he has contact with me. Although it is pretty obvious to most of our co-workers that this guy has a crush on me, I don’t reckon that people think that he is threatening (he comes over a quite shy/timid) and no one really knows a lot about him (he is a bit of a loner).
You may think that this all seems harmless, but I obviously find this kind of behaviour threatening and very disturbing. At the same time- what is this guy REALLY doing, and apart from being obsessed with me… nothing too obvious…so not an easy case to make.
I did a little research and Person A definitely strikes me as being an Intimacy Seeker who “seeks to establish an intimate, loving relationship with their victim. To them, the victim is a long sought-after soul mate, and they were meant to be together. Also, they may have the delusion that the victim is in love with them–usually called erotomania. They may interpret any kind of response from the victim as encouragement, even negative responses. (I have ignored this guy for weeks on end, being really rude and stand offish most of the time).
They may believe the victim owes them love because of all they have invested in stalking them, and is very resistant to changing their beliefs. The intimacy seeker has an inflated sense of entitlement (Told my boyfriend he should not be surprised if he “reads about him some day”). After the rejected stalker, the intimacy seeker is the most persistent type of stalker. They are usually unresponsive to legal sanctions, viewing them as challenges to overcome that demonstrate their love for the victim.
To get to my point (at last!) – so this guy has OCD, and is stalking me I reckon. Which does not mean that all types of persistent stalkers (at the lack of a better phrase- I am referring to as mentioned mostly the “resentful” and “intimacy seeker” types of stakers) suffer from OCD, but perhaps a significant percentage of them do?? In which case it would be a hell of a lot easier to understand how the so called Stalker’s mind works, perhaps resorting to treatments such as CBT to challenge these kind of stalking behaviours.
I also would like to make it clear that I am not concerned about OCD sufferers whose behaviour are mistaken for “stalking”- which is pretty harmless in itself, seeing that crime statistics proof that OCD sufferers barely harm as much as a fly. It’s the other side of the coin that I am wondering about.
Ps. I agree with you that a lot of stalkers are not socially maladaptive. Perhaps I wasreferring to Person A. And perhaps he is not as socially maladaptive as I reckon- instead just dismissing information that contradicts what he wants to believe/how he sees things
H, I hope you can find someone to help you out with the person at your work. It sounds worrisome. I don’t know how to go about getting someone to get some treatment, but perhaps there are experts somewhere who do.
From you and P, OCD- or OCD-ish behavior sounds like Tourette’s Syndrome except instead of un-voluntary “tics”, it is un-voluntary thoughts and actions. The analogy would be: what an involuntary “tic” is to a Tourette’s sufferer, an involuntary “thought” is to an OCD sufferer.
After all, same neural wiring, just going to a different place — physical movement vs. abstract thought. Either way, not reward-dopamine driven: the sufferer doesn’t want the unwanted thought. It is un-voluntary.
Contrast the malevolent stalker: different motivation. Seems to be originally driven perhaps by a dopamine urge, then stuck in an OCD-style repeated loop.
I don’t get it.
Jip, I am keeping an eye on things. This guy is obviously obsessed with me, and although I don’t feel physically threatened, it’s a bit of a mental battle at the moment. Interesting to observe though, once you realize what’s happening it is much easier to keep a sober eye on things. I would advice any one to trust their gut instincts about these things- for months I was amiable, even pitied this guy, before I realized that I should have trusted my instincts from the beginning..Perhaps a female tendency I dare say!
I agree with OCD being like Taurette’s – just with involuntary thoughts, a very good analogy.
Also baffled as to why people stalk, hopefully someone can throw some light on this. Could be easier to analyze the type of situation that involves either a “rejected” or “resentful” stalker where the Stalker knows the victim, and usually has easier access for this reason, and there’s bit of history. Easier also to look at the “predatory” stalker whose main motivation seems to be sexual gratification. But maybe I am over-simplifying.
On the other hand, when it comes to the “intimacy seeker” things seem a bit more complex.
Good point..Not sure now where of even IF OCD comes into the picture at all! With OCD you are trying very hard to rid yourself of “dirty/wrong” thoughts and constantly battling with feelings of guilt, and “Obsession” in the case of stalking seems to be contemplative and sinister, as well as premeditated/calculated in a lot of cases. Something very different indeed.
Aha, I should have done my research- just read the initial postings on OCD etc. I quote ” Cognitive inflexibility: similar to those with OCD, the fronto-striatal loop seems to be stuck: stalkers so objectify the targets that beyond mere “obsession”, there is a compulsive need to “complete” the stalking….
This is much more along the lines of what I meant but could not quite articulate. Well said!
H, thank you for your insight.
The Tourette’s analogy is very interesting to me (and I don’t mean to trivialize or marginalize, just from a strictly neural wiring point of view).
The OCD aspect of stalking is, from what I can see, totally different from the more “intimacy seeking” aspect, where people seem to be delusional.
So, again, the hostile stalker, the one who has an agenda beyond just un-voluntarily satisfying a compulsion, seems to use stalking as an instrumentality toward some kind of goal, usually vindictive, it seems.
Perhaps the question should be, is there OCD-based vindictiveness? Some people are stalked for years. Why would anyone do that, if it wasn’t some compulsive behavior?
I would guess that most people who engage in stalking behaviors primarily the result of OCD aren’t being vindictive. Now, I can see where the clinical picture might get very murky if some Axis II disorders were thrown in. Is it possible to be OCD and have AntiSocial PD? Surely it is. This all seems so clinicall complicated to me.
One could really do a short course on Stalking 101 and have hours of material to present because of the diversity represented under such a vast penumbra.
P
Agree, the OCD component seems to relate to persistence, rather than motive. In vindictive stalkers, the stalking is the instrumentality, or the tool, to get at the target of their wrath. If there were another way to assert themselves they’d to that. So the OCD probably only accounts for the length of time these people feel vindictive. (I’m totally speculating).
I’m more focused on the neural wiring perhaps underpinnning the behavior, and found a paper on wife batterers — someone finally put domestic violence offenders in an fmri. Sheesh I don’t really know what to make of it except the parts of the brain that light up aren’t the ones related to emotion, or even fear. Totally unexpected to me, but maybe totally expected for those in the field, I don’t know. I’m working up a post for later today or tomorrow and any insights you have would certainly be appreciated.
Interesting I reckon- relates to domestic abuse/stalking
http://nativetimes.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=937&Itemid=35
“As an obsessive-compulsive condition, stalkers do become addicted—not to external substances but to their own brain chemicals. The longer they stalk the more obsessive they become until they kill”.
and on OCD/stalking specifically
http://www.disability-resource.com/OCD/am-i-crazy-in-love-or-just-crazy-.php
and something on OCD/stalking specifically
http://www.disability-resource.com/OCD/am-i-crazy-in-love-or-just-crazy-.php
Thanks H, yup, there it is, OCD for stalking. Thanks for the links. I wonder if the people who frequent gaming casinos may have and OCD tendency — leading to the noted high incidence of Native Americans being stalked (by anyone, not just other Native Americans).
I have a new post up about wife batterers – similar to OCD-ish wiring, it looks like there is an involuntary stimulus-connection (but the data is pretty sparce). I was surprised that no one has put malevolent stalkers or wife batterers in the fmri to see what’s what, and just lately, it seems this is starting.
I’ve been googling (from there all these quite random links!) and there is apparantly a link between Huntington disease (of which I know very little..) and stalking
On Huntington’s:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huntington's_disease
Research:
http://www3.interscience.wiley.com/journal/118519282/abstract?CRETRY=1&SRETRY=0
http://www.crimetimes.org/08a/w08ap8.htm
Could be interesting when looking at some of the neurological findings, sometimes a link between all these things
Wow, how interesting.
This is certainly not to say that people with OCD have Huntington’s (just to make that clear so people are not unduly alarmed).
Huntington’s, Fragile X, Parkinson’s and other “trinucleotide” repeat disorders — all seem to have a “pre”-condition before neuromuscular problems flare up.
The “pre-” psychological states can be:
Machiavellianism (http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2007/10/04/neurological-correlates-machiavellianism/)
or depression
http://neurologicalcorrelates.com/wordpress/2008/09/04/depression-may-be-genetic-in-fragile-x-premutation-carriers/
or any number of personality changes. Now we know OCD can be another aspect.
Hi, “Swivel”…. and first off, I am really appreciating stumbling upon your site, and there doesn’t seem to be anything else quite like it…. thank you!
Have always been interested in psychology, and especially evolutionary cognitive issues (i.e. Jaynes, “The Bicameral Mind”, etc.), but having once been married to a woman who was later clinically diagnosed as NPD/BPD, have become intrigued by the rapidly growing data linking personality disorders to specific neurological/organic deficits, along with the notion that all of this is much more common in modern culture than we may know.
Also, I hear ‘ya re: “is the medical profession just not paying attention to some of these behaviors and biological causes?”. In the case of my “ex”, we must have gone thru at least a half dozen marriage counseling “experts”, some with doctorates, extensive couples research and famous books under their belts, who were even teaching at local universities. And yet none of them ever broached the idea of psychological issues to either of us during couples counseling, although in retrospect, some of the behaviors I was describing with her were pretty bizarre (chronic rages, self-destructive acts, unusual “fixed” & repetitive behaviors, etc.).
I mentioned previous, Dr. Daniel Amen’s “Change Your Brain, Change Your Life”, which explains the brain/behavior links in layman’s terms, and that I eventually stumbled upon. Of particular interest was the fact that he devotes several chapters explaining certain relationship difficulties in terms of brain imbalances (“risky” & “fixed” cingulate behaviors, etc.).
Long story short, we went to one of his clinics, and discovered the issues with my “ex” after we went thru lengthy psychiatric evaluations and brain PET scans (which perhaps not surprisingly, showed her brain lit up like a xmas tree, even at rest). But as often happens with these folks, there followed total denial of any problem, even in the face of the evidence, so my options had become pretty clear by then.
Have noticed lately that just as Autism and Asperger’s have come to be regarded as existing on a “continuum”, some are now suggesting that perhaps all the Axis II disorders (and perhaps even Axis I) may similarly exist along some sort of “continuum” based on developmental and organic deficits.
Obviously the results of all this are only slowly hitting public awareness, but all of it would seem to have enormous implications in every area, including education, criminal justice, politics, religion, etc.. Actually, it seems like the early controversies re: the practice of “medicating” disorders, was only the beginning of all this.
BTW, how did you become interested in this area yourself, and what are you seeing as some of the growing concerns that are emerging? Also, the Europeans have been alot more “progressive” in similar areas, so I wonder if they’ve been starting to dealing with these issues any differently from a social perspective.
Anyway, very well done, and thanks again!
Mateo, thank you for your kind words, and I’m glad you find this information perhaps useful. You sound like you’ve taken a lot of time to read what’s out there. The biology clicked for me, so I took to PUBMED self help. (This was some time ago, and there’s a lot more relevant information now.)
After a year of blogging about white collar sociopaths, the whole financial meltdown hit, and pretty much confirmed my suspicions. Plus, the various dysfunctional people in my personal orbit had gotten out of control (another story). So I recently went activist.
And here we are, home of “Anti-sociopath-activism”.
M, knowledge is power. Sorry about your ex — sheesh. You made it to the other side.
I really think there are so many people who have been through something like this (not to trivialize your experience at all, or say it’s common or anything), but the demographics have got to be huge. What a shame.
Thanks! And BTW, I think the NPD model might explain some stalking behaviors. Just as the NP’s undeveloped ego/sense of self requires not only an internal “grandiose” self-image, they also heavily depend on others for “narcissistic supply” to prop that image up. This usually includes “projecting” some of the missing parts of their psyche onto others, resulting in relationships with a partner that is very “over-idealized”. But naturally all this only lasts until ‘reality’ sets in, and the partner eventually begins objecting, sets boundaries, or leaves, causing “narcissistic wounding”. In fact NP’s are notoriously hyper-sensitive to any perceived criticisms of their behavior, often putting them into a rage, and depriving them of their idealized “other”, is not only a criticism, in a real sense it is also depriving them of a piece of who they “are”.
Mateo you clearly have been giving this a lot of thought and I appreciate your insights. Yup, that’s the “NPD” playbook, repeated a zillion times every minute of the day.
I found the the purely psychological point of view unsatisfying. I’d like to figure out the neural wiring, and then warn everyone.
I’m thinking “NPD” is actually a form of dementia, or at least the inability of neuronal plasticity in the front part of the brain relating to moral decision making (or so it’s thought). “NPD” is a fairly rigid view of the world, and it seems like a neural plasticity problem. Plus, people sliding into dementias may become more Machiavellian as they go along.
Yes, totally agreed that the psychology and behavior is primarily a manifestation of a neurological deficit, itself the result of genetic, traumatic and/or developmental causes. For example, my “ex” clearly had genetic components, with a history of dementia (you’re right!) in the family, and there were also some clear psychological similarities in her siblings. But the brain scans indicated she had also experienced some brain trauma at one time (likely a couple auto accidents), affecting the pre-frontal, temporal and parietal lobes as well.
But whether it’s one’s boss, significant other, or politicians & public figures, you bet, understanding these mechanisms and recognizing the behaviors is invaluable. I just personally find it more useful to also try and understand what the world must look like from the point of view of the individuals living these “states of mind”. And in the case of NPD/BPD, it’s well known that these folks have an uncanny ability for sensing and manipulating the weaknesses and emotional needs of others, so understanding the psychological dimension is also helpful in assessing my role and behaviors in attracting them.
Finally, my own interest lately is in the possibility that there may also be specific neurological links to various cultures too. No intention to “diss” anyone here, but for example, am struck by how many of the typical attributes and cultural values of folks of Scots-Irish descent (a.k.a. “Ulster Scots”, “Hillbillies”, etc.), fit characteristics usually associated with over-active cingulate/decreased pre-frontal and temporal lobe activity, including:
- Oppositional, adversarial
- Inflexible/rigid behaviors and codes
- Cyclic periods of calm alternating with intense aggressiveness
- Frequent ADD/ADHD
- Trouble learning from experience
- Noisy or hyperverbal
- A xenophobic, “outsider” culture, with a sense of being “special” (the “original” Americans, God’s chosen people, etc.)
- “Conflict seeking” and “fixed thinking” (Think “Hatfields & Mccoys”)
- Strong aversion to crowds/urban density (rural “hillbilly” culture)
- Addictive personality (over-eating/poor diet, high use of cigarettes, alcohol/moonshine, meth, etc.)
- Impulsivity & risk-taking (“live for today”, poor money management, high rates of STD’s & teen pregnancies, love of firearms, frequent trouble with the law, speeding, “motorsports”, NASCAR, 4X4′s, ATV’s, etc.
Add a reputation for a certain amount of “inbreeding”, along with either very lax or else authoritarian parenting (high control/low support) associated with attachment disorders, and you have a whole culture perpetuating not only certain values, but also the genetic brain pre-dispositions along with it. BTW, the values of this particular cultural group have been well-documented in books like “Albion’s Seed”, by David Hackett Fischer, and “Born Fighting: How the Scots-Irish Shaped America” by James Webb. But I can also think of other cultural groups that could just as easily be explained from a neurological perspective as well.
M, just to follow up on some of your points:
Understanding the behavioral “phenotype” is like being an anthropologist. I mean, it’s like noting, “on the island of NPD, the natives view others in the context of power, and refuse cooperation if they see no immediate benefit from it, nor punishment if they decline.” Someone should write a book like that.
Sheesh, so, no wonder your ex had brain trauma — with a predisposition toward Nascar. :O But interesting about the dementia angle. It’s like personality disorders are dementia without the memory loss.
On the books you reference — I think I saw an interview with the authors of one of those books — talking about how the southern US folks seem to have a lawlessness about them leading to clannish societies. It’s really the nature-nurture question: if you’re raised by Marlboro smoking Nascar Drivers do they make you who you are? Or will you be born a Marlboro smoking Nascar driver? Probably both, and moreover, it’s not straight Mendelian genetics.
Did you see that the McCoys had von Hippel Lindau disease, causing adrenal tumors? It was thought that these tumors caused extreme anger and aggressive hostility. http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/17967965/
Interesting stuff re: the McCoys (and you have to wonder about the Hatfields?). Also, understood re: nature/nurture, etc. and there are other variables. But if a culture continually emphasizes certain behaviors, it would seem that they’re also reinforcing/self-selecting the ones that are genetically/neurologically linked. Just as evolution favors certain successful characteristics, except in humans, our “cultural values” help decide which traits are “successful”. Reward “education”, you gradually get a smarter group; reward for aggression and “NASCAR”, you get something else.
Love the analogy with anthropology and the idea of describing various native types or “cultures”, and especially the book idea. But to really sell, you’d probably have to dress it up in contemporary self-help lingo, perhaps with a title something like, “Narcissists are from Pluto, and Stalkers are from Uranus: a neurological guide to the difficult personality types in your life”…!
“Narcissists are from Pluto, and Stalkers are from Uranus: a neurological guide to the difficult personality types in your life”…!
LOL! I’m stealing that title!
Re – natural selection for angry people who do take unnecessary risks and do dangerous things and have an inability to form social bonds
Maybe it’s the culture that encourages it, but at some point there would be a rate limiting reproductive step even in surviving infancy.
“..but at some point there would be a rate limiting reproductive step even in surviving infancy.”
Perhaps, unless they have lots of kids and generally multiply like rabbits (which statistically this cultural group happens to do).
“I’m stealing that title!”
Cool, now we just gotta get Oprah to mention it…!!
Could be that there is a cultural and inheritance predisposition.
Two genes come to mind:
A vasopressin receptor, “Genetic variation in the vasopressin receptor 1a gene (AVPR1A) associates with pair-bonding behavior in humans”
http://www.pubmedcentral.nih.gov/articlerender.fcgi?tool=pubmed&pubmedid=18765804
and a dopamine receptor allele with an extra 7 repeats in it:
“Parenting quality interacts with genetic variation in dopamine receptor D4 to influence temperament in early childhood,”
http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=1377200
The awsome thing about the title is that Pluto isn’t even a planet any more, it’s a. . .whatever.
You’re right, how appropriate (and Pluto’s also now considered a dwarf or “incomplete” planet!), but re: “Uranus”, I don’t think we even wanna go there!
Hope someone can give me a clue about all this.I just want to understand better this person.
It comes out like this.I new a guy at work whom i liked a lot and told him but he had a girlfriend although he liked the fact that i liked him.I am the one that has stalking tendencies although i never really make them true ( i control myself).I just became obsessed by him and wanted to know more.More than it was correct to know but I never had any conduct that could distress him.I just searched on the internet…The thing is that at first i was the obsessed and he just seemed to pass.
I got out of the job, therefore saw him no more.The last day I gave him my mail so that he send me some last papers of the job but he didnt gave his back (he really looked at me as if he had gotten rid of a great charge,and really acted as if he gave me the email i wouldnt stop stalking him).
So I thoght ok i loved u but i´m not going to give you the chance to feel sorry for me.I did a great effort and never called him again.
And what do you think happened then?He is the one who makes calls , identifies himselfs , puts music on the phone,calls names only both of us used as jokes but doesnt really let me stablish contact.He is just calling to tell me he is there .
I still like him so really I dont mind his calls at all ( I mean if he is a stalker he is a stupid one because i like him).I have a feeling that he liked me going behind him and that he does all this calls( that really distress me after 5 years of knowing and trying to get over him)but isnt upfront about things and tells me to go out.He doesnt love me , he wants me to pursue him.COuld that be true?
Someone answer me because I do not understand this guy.I´ve always been very clear with him.He just plays strange games.
OK: Something new here, I’m going to attempt to give out relationship advice, and I’m the last person who should ever be doing this, so if anyone else wants to jump in, please do. But here goes:
Lostsoul, this individual doesn’t want a healthy relationship, he wants a dopamine hit. People who play games do so for a reason: imo, it’s dopamine, or possibly a lack of vasopressin sensitivity. Where you can’t feel bonded love (vasopressin) you get off on power (dopamine). Avoid him like he was covered in cactus spines that prevented any other living thing from getting close because emotionally that is what is going on.
And as far as your own dopamine hit, it’s temporary. Even if you have the dopamine-hots for him now, think about it: what would you do if you caught him? Change him? Forgetaboutit. He’d still be weird and you wouldn’t trust him. A leopard doesn’t change his spots, and a dopamine junkie doesn’t change his receptors. If he has vasopressin receptor problems, no amount of human contact in the world will change that. Plus, he sounds manipulative. This could be a white matter disconnect to parts of the brain allowing compassion. All in all, if this individual not only is not interested in you but then expresses interest only in a manipulative way calculated to avoid a healthy relationship, there are some brains cells and chemicals that have taken a serious left turn.
Also, under no circumstances would I ever recommend a surrepetitious oxytocin spray up the nose in order to biochemically trick him into feeling love, forgetaboutit. The half-life of oxytocin is about three minutes and if you were married for say, 50 years, you’d be forced to squirt oxytocin about 9 million times. Too much work. You could hire someone, but that would be expensive, and who knows, he might end up feeling strongly about the help, which would defeat the whole purpose. Plus he’d probably catch on.
Find someone else. The easiest thing to do is go out, have a great time, be around people who you really get along with, and move on. Block his calls and e mails. Don’t rationalize any kind of need for him. If it escalates to harassment then call law enforcement.
Your brain is better than that. Good for you for recognizing “stalking” tendencies. If you have insight into your own behavior, that is a good sign. Some people lack the brain cells or connections to have self-insight. If you are concerned about any kind of mental health issue see a professional.
So, if you get with Mr. Dopamine-Vasopression-white matter challenged, know what you’re getting into, and know that this may fulfill a neuro-need of your own.
With hopes you block his texts and mark his e mail as spam, Swivelchair
Thankyou swivelchair.I knew he was playing with me.But because I also have this tendencies you always have that need to think it would come out right.Its tough and its a real fight because of my own way of being .Five years of hope, that it would come out in something right its too much.I´m sure he will never become harmful , he has no need to , and its very intelligent.But I ask myself does he really understand he is hurting me.I mean apart from his own satisfaction could it be that he likes torturing me that way, feeding my hopes for nothing.
Lostsoul, five years?
I hope you find your soul, Swivelchair
I am having trouble with this concept. I believe that I am stalking a guy that I knew from high school. I recently saw him and we exchanged phone numbers. I call him once a day and he doesn’t answer the phone. I check his facebook page to see if he is online. He invited me to his house for a Barbeque and I knew I shouldn’t have went by there, but I drove by and no one was there. I think about him a lot and it upsets me that he ignores me. I would really just like to move on with the rest of my life and forget about this guy because he is not interested in me at all. He has hurt me in the past in fantastical ways. I want to forget about him so I can enjoy my life without thinking that I am not good enough to be loved because he doesn’t care for me enough to respect me or be kind to me. I question my worthiness when this person ignores me and mistreats me. and I’d like to stop feeling that way. It has always been important to me that he accepts me and thinks that I am attractive (which he has never really done). I feel crazy when I can’t reach him. I am searching for his approval and I can not understand why the way he feels about me matters at all. I want to move on with my life and forget about this guy.
Queen N., at least you are aware of what you are doing, and know it’s not good for you. That is 99% of the battle, I think. Seriously, get something else going,but you know that already.
I wonder if you can channel all of that energy into a blog? You know, I tried to find blogs written by stalkers or even any research where stalkers (and not their victims) are studied, and it’s between rare and non-existent. But there seems to be other people like you who may be “stalking” and wanting to stop, but can’t. “stopstalking.com” would be a good one.
(Usual disclaimer, this is my opinion only, and I’m not a healthcare provider of any kind, just an anonymous blogger, sorry for having to disclaim, but I don’t want to have people think that I’m giving any kind of advice through a blog. . . )
I am a stalker…..but a sad rather pathetic one. My ex broke off our relationship 4 years ago. I still email him, I apologise, I explain, I still “love” him, I blame myself for the breakup though when I look back I can’t see what I actually did wrong. I’ve never threatened, never would, never have feelings of revenge or wanting to hurt him, never could. I just miss him so much it feels like someone ripped off my right arm when he left and I can’t get over it. Abandonment stuff. But what happened to me was quite unique. I sought help and was told I had this disorder and that, including OCD. Then I found out, after an accident I’d had a brain injury and they say thats why it keeps happening because my brain is literally stuck so its ground hog day for me every day. Its getting better, but it hasn’t stopped. The thing that got me is there is so much advice and help and support [quite rightly] for the victims of stalkers but there just seems to be nothing for those that do it. I saw doctors who dismissed it, some even laughed at it, no one seems to be able to help me. They say I just have to stop or worse just learn to live with it. The point is I can’t live with it and its hard to know where to turn. I tell myself its obsession but it doesn’t help because to me it feels like love. I would never hurt him, in fact I am more in danger than he is because there are times I can only see one way out of this and that really shouldn’t be.
A.Shamed, thanks for the comment, and your insight. I agree totally that the medico-psychiatric-research community dropped the ball on this one. (To make it clear, my blog post wasn’t aimed at you, it was aimed at stalkers who seek revenge – maybe an OCD component, but clearly not what you are referring to at all.)
I’m in the biopharma business, and so my bias is toward meds, rather than “just living with it.”
Isn’t there a psych med that can help reduce compulsions? IMO, you’re ahead of 90% of the people out there if you recognize your behavior, so don’t give up.
(Sorry but of course the usual caveat, I’m not a health care provider, or any qualified to give any kind of medical advice, and if you need it, go to a professional — please don’t rely on this blog for medical advice of any sort. . . )
I stumbled on your blog whilst searching for insight into why people stalk. It has been really insightful giving me lots of different perspectives.
My problem is I have a police detective stalking me. He uses his position to ruin my life. Due to the resources he has access to he has distributed dvds of a derogative nature (footage from a camera in a street light out side my house of my husband and I in the bedroom) to everyone he meets, including other police officers. I’m desperate to make this stop but as he is a police detective and I have no physical evidence (I dont have a copy of the dvd, men just say to me I’ve seen your dvd and when I ask them what dvd they just smirk). I have no one to turn to for help, my husband thinks I’ve lost it and I dare not talk to the new friends that I’ve made through college. As I don’t have any physical contact with him, but I know he watches me (I’ve seen him at college etc), I was hoping I could change my behavior, to make him stop.
This has been going on for over 10 years but is gradually getting worse, it started when I helped his ex girlfriend find happiness in a new relationship after he had ruined her life to the point of her trying to commit suicide (he had among other things told everyone she was a prostitute) and since then I have been his victom.
As I am a self diagnosed social phobic the rumours that I’m a porn star/prostitute did not effect my life too much until now as I’m now overcoming my phobia and attending college as a mature student, I need to stop this and change my life. Can anyone Please Help or point me in the right direction I know it sounds like I’m mad/paranoid but I’m not I’m just desperate.