Neurological correlates of aggressive, hostile-type stalking: the cognitive inflexibility and source memory impairment of OCD topped off with a lack of self awareness.
I didn’t realize January is National Stalking Awareness Month assuming HR Resolution 46 (January 2009) is passed:
Whereas an estimated 1,006,970 women and 370,990 men are stalked annually in the United States and, in the majority of such cases, the person is stalked by someone who is not a stranger;
Whereas 81 percent of women, who are stalked by an intimate partner, are also physically assaulted by that partner, and 76 percent of women, who are killed by an intimate partner, were also stalked by that intimate partner;
Whereas 74.2 percent of stalking victims reported that the stalking partner interfered with their employment, 26 percent of stalking victims lose time from work as a result of their victimization, and 7 percent never return to work;
Whereas stalking victims are forced to take drastic measures to protect themselves, such as relocating, changing their addresses, changing their identities, changing jobs, and obtaining protection orders;
Whereas stalking is a crime that cuts across race, culture, gender, age, sexual orientation, physical and mental ability, and economic status;
Whereas stalking is a crime under Federal law and under the laws of all 50 States and the District of Columbia;
Whereas rapid advancements in technology have made cyber-surveillance the new frontier in stalking;
Whereas there are national organizations, local victim service organizations, prosecutors’ offices, and police departments that stand ready to assist stalking victims and who are working diligently to craft competent, thorough, and innovative responses to stalking;
Whereas there is a need to enhance the criminal justice system’s response to stalking and stalking victims, including aggressive investigation and prosecution; and Whereas the House of Representatives urges the establishment of January 2009 as National Stalking Awareness Month. . .
So, why do stalkers stalk? In the national Stalking Victimization Study, victims were asked about a presumed motivation for their stalkers (Table 6). Out of 3,416,460 victims:
- 36.6% said stalker’s motivation was “Retaliation/anger/spite”
- 32.9% said “Control”
- 23.4% said “mentally ill/emotionally unstable”.
So. . . again, why do stalkers stalk — what is this psychopathology?
First, here’s the law enforcement guidelines for “stalking”
Stalking can be defined as a pattern of repeated and unwanted attention, harassment, contact, or any other course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to feel fear.
It is a course of conduct that can include:
- Repeated, unwanted, intrusive, and frightening communications from the perpetrator by phone, mail, and/or email
- Repeatedly leaving or sending victim unwanted items, presents, or flowers
- Following or laying in wait for the victim at places such as home, school, work, or recreation place
- Making direct or indirect threats to harm the victim, the victim’s children, relatives, friends, or pets.
- Damaging or threatening to damage the victim’s property
- Harassing victim through the internet
- Posting information or spreading rumors about the victim on the internet, in a public place, or by word of mouth
- Obtaining personal information about the victim by accessing public records, using internet search services, hiring private investigators, going through the victim’s garbage, following the victim, contacting victim’s friends, family work, or neighbors, etc.
Source: Stalking Resource Center, National Center for Victims of Crime
Fear and intimidation as a means of unleashing vindictive aggressive hostility is probably pretty common. Here’s an instructive article about a Harvard educated lawyer stalked and murdered by an ex. Tragically, this is only one of thousands and thousands and thousands of stories ending in murder of the victim. This woman even worked for a time in a public defender’s office defending domestic violence defendants – she knew the system. She had gotten a protective order against her stalker at the time of her murder. Apparently she had moved across the country, to Seattle, left the law, and got a gig at Microsoft working on gaming to avoid this guy. No matter; he followed her, shot her to death in a parking lot, and then killed himself. (If you go to the link, read the comments. Very scary.)
Putting all of this together, aggressive, hostility-based stalking seems like a deficit in the parietal region, associated with a sense of self as well as self-referential memories. This, combined with a particularly malignant form of obsessive-compulsive disorder (“OCD”). This is just a preliminary connect-the-dots. Finding research is tough — there are no brain scans of stalkers, and the shrinks with behavioral profiles don’t seem to be talking to the imaging departments:
1. Cognitive inflexibility: similar to those with OCD, the fronto-striatal loop seems to be stuck: stalkers so objectify the targets that beyond mere “obsession”, there is a compulsive need to “complete” the stalking.
2. Impairment of “source memory” (memory of where or from whom you learned something): People with OCD have impaired source memory functioning. If you can’t remember who told you something, then no one has credibility, I suppose, and you sort of re-write history to suit your current state of funk. Source memory is pulled out of the right inferior parietal region – an area associated with a sense of “self”.
3. Lack of perspective taking: Stalkers don’t see things from the victim’s point of view. This much is apparent from behavior: they plainly screw things up. If you want a romantic interest to return, you don’t harass them. Why would someone want to be around the person who harasses and intimidates them? I asked a rage-a-holic this once — “What do you think other people think of you when you rage at them?” and this person went stone silent. Stumped. I don’t think this had occurred to them. I dunno, but seems like a theory of mind deficit, found in the fronto-parietal loop. (That link is an interesting study — putting a transcranial magnet by the brain regions involved in theory-of-mind results in subjects have a tough time figuring out stories about what other people are thinking).
Is anyone out there a stalker? Why do/did you stalk? Why did you stop or is there anything your victim can do to convince you to stop? Was the fear you instilled in your victim satisfactory to you, and in what way? Are you diagnosed with a clinical condition or on psych meds?
I’m serious. What is your thought process?
I don’t expect anyone will answer.
Here’s John Lennon, “Jealous Guy”:
Victom, I empathize with you and I’m sorry but I’m a blogger — I can’t help you directly. This is the kind of stalker that I was blogging about. These guys are vindictive and can stay at it for 10 + years, and really seem to enjoy it. (Caveat readers, I have no idea who is for real and who is not who posts on this blog so I will respond here as though this is a hypothetical, and of course, don’t take any advice from me or any other anonymous blogger on any material thing in your life, especially your safety).
The behavior you describe would be actionable, at least in the US. And that means liability. Liability means that taxpayers have to pay for this guys behavior. That mean elected officials who oversee the police dept. are p.o’. they will be held accountable for this guy’s actions.
I don’t know if that’s a good idea or not, but at if it were me, I’d see a Plaintiff’s lawyer. Sue the government/police dept/individuals? Start with invasion of privacy and go on down the line to abuse of power, defamation, slander, false light, interfering with prospective advantage, intentional infliction of emotional distress etc.
Let me finish the thought process of the stalker: “Heh. I’ll just make her life even worse! This is a challenge!” But, if you sue both individuals as well as the department, having money on the line seems to be a big deterrent with vindictive stalkers at least in my orbit. Here’s stalker algebra:
Losing money > enjoyment from getting even for someone who’s called me out on my atrocious behavior
If I start getting the law involved I don’t know what he would do. I don’t always want to be a victim (I’m not in any other part of my life) but I am scared for my life, he has said howhe could “interfere with my gas cooker to make it look like an accidental explosion” needless to say I’ve become obsessive about the smell of gas. He also followed me on my bike and said he would of knocked me off if he could of got away with it. I know all of this as he made friends with a work coleague of mine who he emailed footage of myself and husband etc. He told my work coleague that if he ever got caught he would just say it was the stress of the job, be put into a mental facility for a couple of months, get a “nice golden handshake and pension”, then set up his own surveilance/security business and carry on.
I no longer work for that company and when I emailed this ex-work coleague he denied everything and I know his computer was changed before I left the company.
I know I’m rambling but I feel trapped and helpless and worst of all I don’t know how to protect my family other than to keep them ignorant.
I know this is all very surreal and I understand you are finding this “mad woman” hard to believe, but I thankyou for your advice. As I said earlier your blog has given me some new insight and I will also look into other cases of police misusing their position and the subsequent outcome.
Thanks again.
Victim, I think everyone should be issued a camera phone at birth. Start carrying one. Film this. Upload it to “Hollaback” in your town if it’s linked.
Or upload it onto YouTube.
Secrecy is the hallmark of abuse. Shine a light on it.
I’m not a stalker, but I understand their reasons. The violent ones, anyway…
Victim, on the off-chance that you are being entirely truthful, stalking of that severity probably will become violent, especially if you take action against him. My professional advice would be to get some protection, a taser gun or mace, and some blinds for your windows. Then, completely ignore him and any of his attempts at instilling fear.
Stalking is his game, and the prize is your attention. If you deny him that, you’re winning. Consequently, he’ll be forced to cede his advances. Or, more likely, he’ll become desperate and more aggressive. Should you get lucky, he’ll make a mistake where you could relinquish solid evidence and take action. Unfortunately, he could become violent.
Or, you could always play unfairly and ruin his life before he ruins yours. Be creative. Whoever said there were rules, anyway?
Swivelchair, I’m not sure if you’d want my opinion on stalking. I have the necessary personality disorder, but I lack the motivation.
very intersting comments.. being involved in a dual stalking relationship , being beat to the punch and arrested recently.. has anyone ever heard of both people stalking eachother and being equally obsessed..?
this was my situtaion and im so embarassed to admit i got arrested.. and charged with a 1st degree misdemeanor.. i was strangely liking the fact he followed me.. in following me though he saw my obsession for him which in turn made him more obsessed. anyone link me to a link or articles speaking of this unique situtaion ?
how recently? Feb?
I was a stalker – I spied and bugged my ex wife for almost a year before being caught. I sent anonymous mails to her containing private things she did. Why ? Anger at the split, walked away with nothing after 17 years (no third party involved), saddness and hurt how she could carry on with new partners so quickly. I am sorry and ashamed at what I did and receiving help to move forward. Looking back at my feelings at the time I just wanted to hurt her like she had hurt me and could not control or direct my anger and saddness. My adcice to anybody who feels like this – go to your doctor and get help – do not follow or stalk – find other ways to direct you feelings. Love can be a killer and you have to move on. By the way the fact she always talked to me about her boyfriends (we had kids so had to keep in touch) did not help and I should have said “don’t tell- it hurts still” instead of pretending to be Ok with it.
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Stalker, thanks for the comment. I can’t tell, but you sound a little astonished, looking back at your behavior objectively and intellectually, as though you were reading a book about someone else.
Your comments — about receiving nothing, about not having a third party involved, about how your ex seemed to intentionally ( or maybe recklessly) hurt you by discussing new boyfriends — indicates to me that there is an “even-steven-fairness” element, sort of an algebraic equation of “1 hurt = 3 nasty e mails” or something like that. (Not to pick on you, at all, but just to use shorthand here). There is an undercurrent of explanation of how she done you wrong, and presumably, justified your stalking at some level until you were otherwise educated that there are other responses to this provocation. Jumping with both feet to conclusions that are probably unjustified, it seems that there is an inability to perceive that she may be thinking things, and have a perspective that may have some rationale to it.
That struck me because “getting even” isn’t automatic — some people would take a bottle of Jack Daniels and listen to George Jones music all weekend feeling sad instead of being angry and getting revenge via stalking behavior. Social rejection and withdrawal.
Other people get angry and want to get even — maybe by stalking. There is a part of the brain that deals with fairness and that has to do with perspective taking, and understanding “intentionality” in others. If you assume negative intentions of others as a default position (“dames — they just want your money!”), you’re probably going to have a hard time in life (not picking on you, this is an exaggeration to make a point). (I’m biased, having been the target of a stalker).
Determining the intentions of others can lead to revenge-seeking behavior to settle the score. There are studies, for example, where $100 dollars is given to one person — who then gives whatever amount to the test subject, take-it-or-leave-it. The test subject can keep it and get free money –hey, free money is all good, right? Or, the test subject can turn it down — and then no one gets any money.
Where the test subject is offered $2, they do guess what? Turn down the free money, based on perceived unfairness of getting only $2 whereas the other person keeps $98. Where it’s $40, they keep it. A 60/40 split is perceived as fair.
Where it’s a robot who arbitrarily gives out the $2, the test subjects keep it. No unfairness perceived.
Autistic spectrum folks keep the $2 no matter what. (I’ve oversimplified all this). Autistic spectrum folks have a tough time perceiving Schadenfreude and gloating in others, incidentally. Some people perceive that others are always basking in the misfortune of others, and gloating about their good luck. This is clearly biological.
My guess is that people who seek revenge, have workplace violence, road rage, all of it are probably wired to perceive injustice and automatically respond with anger. (As opposed to those wired to perceive social rejection, and respond with sadness and George Jones). If you parse the “injustice” there is attribution of “intentionality” on the part of others that really bugs them.
Stalking is almost the opposite of having autistic spectrum, and being unconcerned with the good fortune of others. It seems to be the view that the perceived good fortune of others is at an injustice to ones self — I’m guessing.
So that’s why I was focused on OCD. It’s like the inability to be unconcerned with the good fortune of others, sort of a compulsion.
What is it that makes people want to waste their stalking/getting even/seeking revenge and not move on and have a productive life? There seems to be some wiring that gets people “stuck” in the thought process of “fairness” and therefore getting even.
Any stalkers out there who care to comment on that?
My girlfriend of 5 years, gave me 15 minutes over the phone to tell me no more. I’m a passionate person, and my loyalty got in the way when I saw her in a bar with another man three weeks later. I confronted them, then drove to her apartment, then sent her friends emails. A week later, I went to her house stinking drunk and while crying behind her car I got up, slipped and damaged the car. My head hit the pavement pretty hard, I ran that night. I had been getting help before then, but I relapsed. This behavior is not me and I got even more help since then. I let go of all the hate and rage inside me and I am getting on with my life. In 26 years, I have never felt or though those things. I regret everything I did to scare another person to that degree. I blew any chance of being with her again. I plan on righting every wrong I have ever done in this world to every person I’ve done it to. Stalking even when done just once is wrong. When you feel these things call someone, anyone and they will help you see the light. I have learned more about myself in one night than in 1 year. I will never do that again, because it only made things worse, it will always make things worse. Learn that it takes time to fall in love with someone and it takes someone to fall out of love. If they leave you then its their loss, because you are better than stalking. If something was meant to be, then it was meant to be, don’t force it. Fill your time with activities, write letters, exercise, go out with friends, ask that girl out you never had the courage to, join a interest group or church. Because when she does come back, you’ll be in a better place. Someone mentioned John Lennon earlier, he wrote a lot of good things, my personal favorite is “all you need is love, love is all you need” I let go of all the hate inside me, and I filled it with love and I’m asking that girl out tomorrow and if she shes no then I’ll understand and move on. Don’t stalk its wrong and its illegal, believe me I’ve been there, people are here to help and the sun will come up tomorrow.
Hey DP, whoa. What I get from your post is that your natural response was rage and hate, and that you had to cognitively learn — go to the frontal lobes the part that does trigonometry — to stop.. Thanks for the cautionary tale — we just had a really sad situation in my town involving a family annihilation, due to rage and hate. This has got to stop. I don’t even know where to start getting this to stop.
llll
I am a stalker and was arrested two months ago for harassing a woman who was my friend and with whom I had a romantic interest. I felt abandoned and rejected when I told her that I was in love with her. At first I tried to get her back by apologizing for my “abusive and jealous preoccupation” with her. When she ignored my phone calls and emails I became enraged and wanted to get back at her.
The desire to instill fear in her became increasingly worse over time. Then there was a sexual component to it as well. I threatened her and made sexual advances at her via emails. I felt like a cat cornering it’s prey. I was suicidal and had thoughts of killing her and myself. I demanded attention from her – it didn’t matter that it was negative – I wanted her to always be thinking of me.
I knew it was sick – what I was doing, but I couldn’t stop. I was addicted to the high (it was like a cocaine high) I felt when I knew she was afraid of me. I felt powerful.
Then I got arrested and had to stop the behavior or I would end up in jail for quite awhile. I have not acted out toward her in two months and am getting help. I still am obsessed with her and fight contacting her on a daily basis. I think she won and I want retaliation. But on the other hand, I want to move on with my life. The only reason I stopped was because I don’t want to serve time because of her. I am still angry. I’m angry that thoughts of her still consume me. I think often that she walked away from our relationship unscathed and I was the only one in pain, so I wanted to inflict pain on her.
I almost called her the other day because I wanted her to know that she is not free of me. I didn’t though, and I think what stopped me was not only fear of going to jail again, but I know that I am making some progress and to contact her will reinforce the obsession and I will be pulled back into the behavior like a vortex and won’t be able to stop acting out. At least the past two months have given me some distance from her and the obsession, although still strong, it is lessening – although ever so slowly.
Christine – wow. Thanks for your comment, and I hope other “revenge” stalkers read this. Your introspection is admirable and your clarity of thought is very instructive.
Here’s why your post is instructive: your behavior, on its face, makes no sense. There is no cost/benefit to you; the least cost and most benefit is to cut your losses and moved on for a meaningful relationship (or at least a good time) with someone else.
To summarize in bio-neuro-psycho speak (shorthand): You don’t feel affective empathy for your target, yet you do have “theory of mind” — you know she thinks things, but you don’t care (except to the extent she feels fear, that you intend). You are concerned with social dominance but only selectively — you need to let your target know you are dominant, even if it risks illegal activity. You enjoy power not in the abstract, but power over her. You have stopped not because of a sudden attack of affective empathy, or even disinterest, or even because stalking is time consuming and you can’t fit it into your schedule. You express no regret or guilt. You seem to take revenge justification as your starting premise: “of course if someone rejects your advances you have a right to get even” — as though a strict Skinnerian response, with no alternative. You have the ability to stop with a strong enough disincentive to continue — significant jail time.
The question is, is there a biological basis for this? It could have to do with white matter wiring. Biologically, parsing each behavior/thought process into its lowest common denominator:
1. Lack of affective empathy: Disconnected white matter from limbic system to frontal lobes
2. Lack of insight (indicated by lack of guilt/remorse): Anosignosia — also a white matter disconnect I think (and common in schizophrenia)
3. Social dominance orientation: Large striatum/lots of dopamine receptors to fill up
4. Obsession, inability to let go: Probably not OCD-ish wiring (the OCD stalkers have remorse, feel guilt, and seek forgiveness from their targets); but possibly more of the dopamine-addiction thing. Like a video game addiction involving predation.
5. Ability to have planning: Frontal lobes OK the ability to follow through with elaborate stalking mechanisms; plus, knowledge that more stalking means longer jail time
6. Need to demonstrate power — but selectively to target: Possibly oxytocin related, in that oxytocin may induce heightened social awareness. Oxytocin increases feelings of envy or perhaps the perception of gloating (as in, “look – the target is gloating over rejecting me”). This may be negative attributional bias and a misread of social conditions. The distorted response — outlandish demonstrations of social dominance and power but selectively to the target — may be a result of this social mis-read.
7. Anger as default emotion: Feedback loop from frontal lobes to amygdala is disconnected and could be the white matter weakening in this pathway
Christine — of course, this is a blog, and who knows who is for real and who isn’t (my usual disclaimer) — but again, there is a dearth of information on the thought processes of a revenge stalker — so thank you for having the courage to speak up.
Ok… well, I was in a relationship with someone for 4 years. Who was in the closet and denied me. Even while she was with me. Told everyone I was her cousin and she was single and straight…I felt like I had been the one pushed back in a closet…I didn’t trust her… I don’t know why I stayed … it felt so right when we were together… I felt she only came around when she wanted something. And she was slowly. Turning the relationship into a one sided situation …me being the one having to understand that she couldn’t come out bc her family didn’t except it ….then it was she doesn’t know if she’s gay anymore
I put her on a pedestal. Bc she was special to me and she wanted to feel like she was most important…ishe liked surprises and gifts and I sacrificed a lot to make sure she was happy bc dealing with the rest of the relationship hurt me on a regular basis…. I would call her and she would be whispering to me in hallways. Bc her family and friends were around …and constantly tell me we have no future together. But we stayed together ..
I lost control of my emotions …. I emailed her friend and told her I wasn’t her cousin…I told her mom. That I wasn’t stalking her ( that’s whhat she told her mom). I have threatened todamage her car in the past. I. Threatened to have her mom deported. ( her mom is married to my uncle). … she told me we were taking a break to figure things out with us …..I was doing great. I was meeting new friends. A week goes by and she emails me. One thing leads to another and she tells me she met someone a week later…..
I was physically and emotionally sick …I found out her call logs and got 2 numbers of 2 different guys and started calling them asking them who was sleeping with my gf …I went crazy … I lost my self respect when I agreed to get back together in the closet …. she always had the perfect excuses of why things had to be this way .. I always paid for everything. All I ever wanted was for her to give us a real chance .. …when she would go out with people I would call over and over again …sometimes she wouldn’t come home. I would drive by her house. I would pull up beside her when she got home. And freak out ..I don’t know how I got to this point..she put everyone before me. Everytime one of us was ready to leave. We would bring eachother back …we knew it was hard but we wouldn’t let go … when she let go I already knew once she graduated. Graduate school she would leave me and that’s exactly what she did and went out and made a whole froup of friends and never even considered bring me around them ….I stalked her for a year while we were together ..and when she put her foot down to leave for good. ..I felt I never got back what she promised. That I put up with all this heartache for her to just walk away…its hard. There’s nothing more I could have done to show her I loved her … I think she used me. That I was a convience for her …I made myself a doormat. And when she left I lost control … for awhile I questioned my own sexuality I struggled with it … someone that I loved and looked up to couldn’t live this way. Why do I think its ok? I was never ashamed of who I was …but constantly hearing that her familys opinions and hers tore me down ..I felt gross … I was a stalker …I called people I don’t even know …that is crazy!!!!
My mom hurt me when I was younger. She always treated my other sisters better than me. Its like I made her disguisted… she would always be nice to me when she wanted something from me and when she got it she would be mean …when my ex got what she wnated she would leave … I lashed out when I was younger always trying to make my mom proud of me never worked. Nothing I could do would make her love me like she loved my sisters … i don’t know how this pattern turned this way… when I’m trying to be rational. I say my ex is important to have in my life ….my craziness tells me I’m in love with her. Even though she does nothing for me and I want her back …
Hey P: (usual caveats) — Not a shrink or a doctor, etc. get some healthcare, etc., and don’t know who’s for real on this blog.
Was your stalking to hurt her or to try to convince her to come back?
I haven’t seen the woman I stalked for 3 months (That was in court) or talked with her for a year. I had to go to court recently to be offered a plea bargain for stalking charges against me. It wasn’t the fear of my punishment, or the fear of the consequences for breaking a no contact order several times, but it was seeing her again that caused me to have physiological responses of fear. As soon as I saw her walk in the courtroom, my heart began to pound out of my chest and everything became a blur. She still has that much emotional power over me and I am angry at her because of it. I’m angry because she rejected me and at one point when the stalking was at its worst I wanted to kill her. I contemplated it for months. But when I saw her, I felt sad that I harrassed her for so long and for the toll it has taken on her emotionally and physically. I wanted to tell her I was sorry, I wanted to hold her.
That was three days ago. My case is continued again. I have not stopped obsessing about her since, not that I ever really have, but its worse now since seeing her. I love her, but I hate her. I vacillate between wanting to lash out at her and feeling sorry for what I’ve done. I think I mainly feel sorry that she’s not in my life, not so much for her. My rage is contingent upon her response or my perception of her response so isn’t that self serving?
I did break the no contact order seven times spread out over three months ( a great reduction in contact) and she never reported me. I speculate over and over again as to why she hasn’t. I think she still cares about me, then I think she’s afraid to report me in fear it may escalate my rage and then I think she is worn down. If I think she wishes me well, then I want to leave her alone. If I think she feels contempt for for and feels she has power over me and that she won this battle, then I want to instill fear in her out of retaliation.
I hate that I am still preoccupied with her and that she consumes most of my mental energy – and I have a lot of that. I have been getting professional help and am in a 12 step program and am working on myself, but I am still obsessed and think of ways to keep a connection with her, some how, some way. Even with lots of help I’m struggling, I can’t imagine the outcome if I wasn’t getting the help.
Christine – can you put yourself in her perspective? What do you think she is thinking? Is it tough for you to take the perspective of another?
Intellectually I can understand that she must be frightened and exhausted. She probably doesn’t feel safe even though for the most part I have left her alone for the past three months. Probably she’s experiences some symptoms of PTSD.
She may have asked herself how she became involved with me in the first place.
In all honesty, I cannot or have difficulty in connecting feelings toward her or am able to grasp that she has feelings in reaction to my behvior. I think she is a rock and impervious to my harassment, but what I may be seeing is my own reflection.
Christine, when the part of your brain that does trigonometry sits down down and cognitively things about it you get that she’s terrified. But, when emotion takes over it’s almost like you are in attack mode. You don’t sound like you enjoy instilling fear (unlike other stalkers) , but rather want to force her to recognize you or something along those lines. What’s up with that do you think?
Other stalkers above (I mean who knows, this is a blog for goodness sakes) but other stalkers above said they were diagnosed with OCD. It almost seems like after a while there is some sort of habit or compulsion, that just gets hard wired into your brain that maybe you don’t even understand, and then you just sort of try to explain it away (like, “Yes, I must be in love, that must be it!”) or something.
Is this getting close or sounding familiar? Just wondering if OCD prescriptions would do the trick.
It isn’t an either or situation. Yes it is true that when emotion takes over I go into attack mode, but there were long periods of time while actively stalking her I was on a high from the enjoyment of making her terrified. I knew she was scared, I read about it when I hacked into her email, but I kept wanting to make it worse for her, I wanted to escalate her fear – it made me feel powerful and alive. I thrived on it. I wanted to keep beating her down. But when I saw her recently in the court room, I saw her as vulnerable and felt a little sad for her. In my mind since then, I vacillate between feeling sad for her and wishing I could still harass her. It was a lot of fun.
I’ve never been diagnosed with OCD, although one of the meds I was on was Prozac to control my obsessions and compulsions. It didn’t work. I have been diagnosed with Borderline Personality disorder with antisocial features. I’m not convinced I’m antisocial because I’m too self- conscious and care too much what others think of me.
I believe it has become a habit – an addiction – and is hardwired in my brain. I am trying to rewire it by doing other actions and with CBT, but this is – hands down – the most difficult addiction I’ve had to deal with. I was cocaine and alcohol addicted, but haven’t used either substance in years.
C-
And again, caveat caveat caveat, I’m not a shrink or any kind of healthcare person, and plus this is a blog so who knows who’s for real etc.. . .
Have you had a brain scan? Or any gene scan? Just curious — if you comment back: “Oh yes, my diffusion tensor imaging scan shows my white matter has wobbly portions between my amygdala and orbitofrontal cortex, and my vasopressin receptor allele is the “334″ variant, and my CD38 variants are all over the place leading me to believe my oxytocin receptors in my hippocampus are simply stuck in first gear and I have a dopamine receptor 4 – 7 repeat variant and I have the MAOA and 5-HTTPLR variants found with an inability to use serotonin efficiently and that pesky mu opioid variant that gives rise to cravings and pain sensitivity” well, the social neuro-scientists would all say, “No wonder this individual went into the coke and came out a stalker. You couldda predicted something like this. Christine is biologically loaded to go down this path.”
Here’s my wish: There are a zilllion books on how to be amoral for the power hungry. The Art of War. The Prince. The entire Dwight Schrute-ish genre of ninja-jingoism and worse. How about how the best arguments for the amoral to stop stalking ex girlfriends and actually do something productive for society? I’m tired of my tax dollars being wasted on the 2-3-4% of the population that has to stalk/harass/have little vindictive plots that get people fired and put them on unemployment and get their kids off of health insurance so I end up paying for that again. Enough. This doesn’t even begin to mention those who work the system to end up in the executive suite or financial services. Christine, help. How to deal with the low-on empathy, high on intelligence (that you seem to be), supersized on emotional response, thrill/predatory seeking?
I’ve never had a brain scan. How much would that actually reveal? I don’t have an answer, but I do know that I grow weary of constantly trying to go against the grain in attempt to be like the empathic and altruistic. It only leaves me with a larger void and disconnect but sharper acting skills.
Thanks for the response – good luck.
I fancied this girl a lot and by chance I got to know her, she is 20 I m 35.
I asked her out and told her how much I like her but she said she’d rather be friends, We used to hang together we kissed each other and she used to share a lot of intimate stuff(like illness of her parents etc).
I got to miss her so much and care for her.
After about 3 moths of us talking etc.
I just receive a massage Dont’ talk to me anymore. When I asked her what happened she reported me to the police whic told me not to contact her.
And I can’t forget her and have a lot of guild feelings. We used to talk a lot and now she says with everyone that I harass her and have been doing it from the day I first saw her.
I try not to send her emails etc and its hard for me as I think of her with tenderness and we were so close, and I know I didn’t mess up.
I saw her after 3 months and went up to her and said helo and she made a report to the police.
I know I m harassing her if she does not like my company but how can somone first be so willing and smilling and kissing, hugging and being very intimate and than acts like that. She knew that I cared?
v-
The usual caveat: This blog provides no healthcare advice, we are not healthcare professionals, get a professional if you need one, and we have no idea who anyone is or if any one is for real or not.
Let’s assume all your facts are in order and that there are no confounding facts, and out of the blue, for no reason whatsoever, this person tells an angel, caring, philanthropist and humanitarian like you to keep out and calls the cops every time you approach. For no reason whatsoever.
Your response:
a) She’s a loon, Vince throws away all memories and items having to do with her
b) Vince wears dark glasses and a wig every time he has to go in her neighborhood but other than that stays as far away as possible
c) He’s in love and just can’t get enough so he sends her e mails and just goes and takes a little peep just to check on her now and then. He knows for sure he is in the right, and that she will come around and see his way, if he just keeps up the e mails and calls and of course, there’s nothing to apologize for after all, Vince is totally in the right and the girl is a complete loon and in the wrong, wrong, wrong, and if she just let him help her, he wouldn’t be harassing her. .
d) wha?
See?
I dont’t think she a complete loon, probably her family told her I m too old and would get her in trouble and she just choose the most considerate path.
If she liked me she would have been more clear in her feelings, its this mindgames that push you to get obseessed. I remeber asking myself what happening.
She must have had her reasons the problem is that she did not tell me (when at the same time we where intimate), just hang up on me and that winds up you your mind.
Not that anyone is obliged but one should care.
I think that comunication can solve a lot of issues, before one looses trust in one another.
Its just some poeple take it too much this harassing and fear when probably its fear cause they have said lies etc during the relationship and are afraid that everything will sum up.
No one has the right to judge etc but I think if one is clear in a relationship of anykind a lot of misunderstandings that lead to obsessions and harassments could be avoided.
The most important thing i learened is that to repect each other freedom.
And that if someone is afraid of you its better to just stay away as its impossible to show you care without making the situation worse.
Thanks Vincent –
If someone tells you to stay away from them, stay away. That couldn’t be more clear.
thanks a lot
somewhere I read this and its the way its close to what happened to me,
“Obsessive relationships are not hard to create. Bob will become obsessed if Jane tells him to leave her alone while at the same time she is telling Bob she loves him and they were meant to be together. Bob will get even more obsessed when he hears that Jane has told Bob’s friends how much she loves him, what a jerk he can be and she just can’t be with him. Most guys like Bob might say “Forget it!”, but Bob will start to feel more and more like repairing the relationship if Jane continues to intrude into his life. ”
I encountered quite some people doing the stuff above that get complicated for no reason, especially girls like to attract attention just to see the siutors break obviosly I’ m generalising.
As I said before it is not an excuse to harass people because everyone is free but its good to be fair, on others feelings.
V- Good luck (and I hope your nom-de-net doesn’t indicate that you chopped off an ear in this entire process)
probably you are right, and I watch too much films. Thanks for the discussion
I found this discussion searching for meth related stalking. I am not the stalker, unfortunately for your purposes…however, this discussion has only brought one question back to me repeatedly as I’ve reflected on this information today…
Is there effective help for a stalker whose behavior seems to be intensified by meth?
The stalker is an ex of 18 years. He somehow had A LOT of control over me…insisting I was “crazy” and “weak” and would never find anyone as “good” as him…physical abuse was little…3 memorable occasions, stopping when the drinking stopped ten years ago…poverty, the children, his inability to keep a job..a lot of different “reasons” kept me with him.
He did time for meth, two years total incarceration…while he was incarcerated I found a laptop and many photos…all of women he had affairs with…relationships I had suspected all along, but he would convince me I was “crazy” and paranoid…finding the videos of sexual relations, including a long time affair with a first cousin…this gave me the power to find myself again and begin to prepare myself for the mental detanglement…I reasoned I must have enabled him to exercise the bad behaviors towards me and the continued meth addiction that landed him in prison….explained to the kids (two girls…one his…one ours…that he and I were not healthy for each other and I wanted them to know it was never to late to leave an unhealthy relationship…
I was afraid to leave but I did…taking nothing but personal belongings and a vehicle…our daughter and the pets….I maintained the mortgage on “his” house until he came out of prison…I explained to him I needed space and time to heal….if he wanted to visit with our daughter he should make arrangements thru his mother…he refused, abandoning the child.
This was sept 09 when he was released…the stalking began…following in a vehicle, driving by where I was…incessant and repetitive calling…some days literally several times an hour, ALL day long…into the night…
To shorten this…I’ve had 7 phone numbers now, three phone companies, 6 months unempoyed…hiding in fear as he had made threats towards me and my daughter by saying id drive him to pulling a move a friend of his had…the friend killed his girlfriend, her two daughters then sodimized the young girls after he killed them…(he is in prison for liife)…it was meth the killer was doing when he killed the family…I live on a lot with security cameras…he began with fake profiles in the social sites, attempting to prove I was a “whore”…accessed phone records, credit card records…kept getting my number…chasing me down, I had a protective order in november…it was violated multiple times and I filed for an upgrade to a no contact order finally in april 2010..
He continues to stalk online…we were never married and having a child in common were forced into juvinile court. He does not pay support as he has been deemed by social services as emotionally damaging to our daughter…she is almost 14 and chooses not to see him so I do not pursue the issue through the court, as this judge told me she NEVeR denies visitation to a father….
She read little of the information submitted at the no contact hearing, granting the order after the first three pages of incessant facebook emails…I did not even bother printing each individual message because of the sheer volume of them…
This order has also been violated repeatedly over a 9 day period..calls all night long…driving by…making threats of “slicing his throat” towards any man I dare to become involved with..he has his daughter and boyfriend verbally attacking me through emails…I do not respond to a 16 year old telling me “iTS ALL YOUR GODDAMN FAULT!!!!! Saying “f#ck” to me and just other nonsense…she has messaged my friends via facebook asking them to stop supporting and encouraging me…he is very intelligent and a hacker…my computers crashed twice…after I learned to deal with that he literally hacked remotely into my pc….I just let the internet service go…..my friends get mysterious viruses…my smartphone has been hacked or accessed I’m not sure how…the phones been replaced, the sim card and number again……..and here I stand…no fear for me or what he does to me…fear for my daughter, his daughter….he has 1 year emaining on parole…and a violation of no contact will add more time…
My question…..can this man be helped? The meth addiction I guess beagn when he was 16 years old…his mother has bailed him out of 8 other felonies which I was not aware of until court this time….he has a history of domestic violence towards 3 other women during times before our daughter was born when I would leave him…then get sucked back in as he was sorry etc…
Is there help for him? I think I know the answer after reading “christine’s” posts here…the similarities in things he has said to me and feelings…or lack of, she expressed…
I’ve since learned of antiscocial personality disorder…narcissism…he just seems to lack empathy…for the kids, his parents, me…I seroiusly was tested while I had my daughter in counseling and registered as having PTSD….the counselor had said from our daughters description and subsequently my memories with him that he is not “rational” and I can explain why I left him until I have no breath and he will never understand…
I know there will be no help for him in prison…except the lack of meth….I understand you are not a professional, but he is maintaining a job currently, but also maintaining a meth habit again…3 jobs this year so far, the first two he was fired….
He currently has pictures posted of me to his facebook I’m told stating “before” and “after” because I have lost some weight working two jobs in this heat…implying I am doing drugs. There is also a photo I saw thru a friends page…we have each other blocked…but I never knew it was taken…it is of my backside, as I was dressing, bra and panties only….I am numb to this, do not care…I fight daily to have enough work to survive out here alone…can he be helped? Not for me…I have no intentions of EVER being with him again, but for the kids, his daughter especially as her biological mother is mainly only concerned with herself and the child is wholly consumed with her father and her boyfriend…can he be helped? Or is my only option taking myself and all the violations to the parole officer? Please respond as I feel very alone in this…my friends are somewhat frightened. I realize I’m going to need counseling again as the whole matter makes me sad, just finding time between working two jobs and maintaining a loving relationship with my daughter…being mom and dad…I honestly feel like a soldier must certainly feel. Thank you for any observation based on the facts presented here, and your own research on the subject.
Angelina
Hi Angelina – and please know that this blog isn’t for advice of any sort, so please excuse the impersonal response — but crystal meth burns out brain white matter connections (among other things). So it’s brain damage, imo, that’s a tough one.
One thing that I go back and forth on: is stalking a form of addiction? I had thought it more a form of OCD (that is, anxiety-sort of). But there is definitely a reward-prone aspect. And, it seems that lots of stalkers are also addicts, at least anecdotally.
Angelina,
Gather evidence and and report every incident to the police – he has to realize there are severe consequences for his behavior. He will not stop, or just go away, but will continue to escalate, possibly leading to a deadly situation.
I am now wearing a GPS ankle bracelet and if I violate, I will go to prison for five years – not something I’m willing to do. Even after the consequences of my behavior and all of the work I have done in counselling, DBT and AA, I still think of ways around the law to continue to harass this woman – it is a powerful addiction – the most powerful I have ever dealt with personally.
However, I have not acted out toward her because it took great amounts of energy to think of ways to harass my target and the more momentum I built in pursuing her, the less willing I was to surrender – it was hard work! I was compelled to reach my goal which was to kill her and then myself . The court and therapy and a combination of other factors interrupted my momentum – several times. I began to get relief through other means of dealing with my rage and the hurt that was really underneath – and the inability to be vulnerable. Now I have been travelling this new road leading to freedom from her. When I think of hurting her (emotionally, psychologically or physically), I realize how it would be another interruption to the momentum I am building in lessoning the obsession. I am less willing to let that happen – I’m tired of the pendulum swinging from one extreme to another. I want to stay on this new road and see where it leads me. i already know where the other road ends.
Your safety is at stake. Don’t allow him to continue to escalate. He may never get better, but the chances of him getting better without court intervention are nil.
Again I do undersatnd the purpose of this discussion board, so absoloutely no offence is taken in any “impersonal” reply…
Between both relpies from swivelchair re: meth destroying the white brain tissue…and from Christine’s honesty and helpful insight into what has helped her towards recovery…
Thank you both…and as with any addiction or addict, I sincerely wish you, Christine all the best….my research on all aspects of this matter solidifies that the road to recovery is difficult, but never completely impossible. And hope you continue to reinforce all you have learned and find success and peace nullifying your addiction to this woman.
My decisons are based on many, many attempts and much research into trying to determine how to help him without personal contact…not soley this discussion board, but all information has helped.
Thank you for the discussion board.
Christne –
Here’s the thing (and I appreciate your comments) — do you think this is more of an obssessive compulsive (anxiety-type) thing with you? Meaning no disrespect, this is really a question I have.
Or is it more of an addiction?
The reason I ask is that the two seem like very different motivations, and different brain wiring. You seem to mention both in the posts.
Angelina, drug addiction is a tough one and something professionals handle. Safety is paramount, and we’re not experts on that, so we hope your local services have some kind of training in this (although we’re not optimistic, as stalking, one of the most prevalent crimes ever, gets virtually no respect from law enforcement because of the difficulty in prosecution).
I’m not sure… but I’m wondering if it was obsessive-compulsive, wouldn’t it be demonstrated in other areas of my life? I do have other addictions, but not other OCD behaviors. Could it be both?
When I thought of things I wanted to say to the stalking victim, I felt great anxiety to get them out to her as soon as possible. I would write an email and as soon as I clicked on send, I felt relief until another thought would arise and I’d do it again and this would happen sometimes 50 times in one day.
I also know that I felt an intense high – a rush of adrenaline feeling- when I’d think of clever things to say and feeling powerful when I sent those emails, knowing it was making her afraid. It was a way to avoid life, it was complete fantasy – same as addictions to gambling and pornography. Any person who tried to enter my life, or any responsibilities disrupted my fantasy life – they were barriers to my goal of feeling high again – same as being stuck in traffic jams were barriers to my attempts at getting drugs as soon as possible.
Also, if I drink, that temporarily relieves my anxiety, but yet I sometimes still want to contact her during those times. Why would I be trying to relieve my anxiety if it’s already relieved by alcohol? I think it is to make a pleasurable sensation(alcohol buzz) more intense. That’s why I used to do cocaine whenever I drank – I wanted to increase the high.
I hope this helps.
Hey C-
Your posting here (and the usual caveat to the readers, we have no idea who’s for real and who’s not, sorry C), but your posting here I think is eye opening and much appreciated at least to us.
Again, this is really to try to figure out behavior that is so common, and makes no sense. Why would someone waste their own valuable limited lifetime on someone they dislike or even feel contempt for?
As we understand it, at some point addictions have a tipping point where the “high” is no more and it’s just a matter of reaching the “new normal”. So (to read between the lines) after a while it wasn’t so much of a power rush as it was avoidance of the painful aspects of after a perceived rejection. Brain scans show that the physical-pain brain areas light up with social pain, too, so that would make sense.
You ask why did I stalk. In hind site no good reason only excuses. But as I have read more articles on this I have come to realize that it was simply to fulfill some emotional need that had become void due to my pursuits in other areas of my life. Once again only excuses not reasons. I have since sought help from a councilor and and have found this to be of great assistance as it has helped me to understand the deficits that I have and to began to address them in a healthy manner. I felt like a monster as I did this and my stomach does churn every time I think of the problems that I caused. I am truly sorry to the woman that I hurt and as time goes by I would like to write an email to her expressing my thanks to her for not pursue charges. She did not pursue charges because of some faint hope that we would re-unite but rather because she is a kind and complete person. I also realize not that the email much like the stalking will accomplish nothing.
Thank You J.D
Hi D-
The usual disclaimers = we have no idea who is for real and who isn’t – but thanks for taking the time to comment.
If any stalkers out there are reading this, there is life after stalking.
I didnt consider myself myself a stalker but by the description above I fit some of the criteria. I had known this person for a long time.We got involved.I was going through a horrible time(dealing with PTSD related to seeing 1 man of 7 who had raped me years earlier-I did go to therapy for this & thought it had been resolved but when you run into them in a public place,I wasnt prepared for the backlash)The man I was involved with claimed numerous times to be my friend.I trusted & confided in him.Over time, I thought he was lying to me & leading me on but when I tried to confront the behavoir he turned it back on me & made me feel that Iwas crazy & it was all from my PSTD-After a year I couldnt take anymore & when I had the confrontation he flat LIED to my face-the realization that he was not my friend, that he had been lying to me, manipulating me & using me for whatever, just about destroyed me.I had spent that year trying to piece back my reality & the guilt & self doubt I felt for being suspicious of him made me feel horrible.After that I was angry, hurt, confused, & wanted an explanation,an apology, something to show me he acknowledged the damage his behavoir caused at time that I was already hurt & confused.I wanted the things back that I gave him on the presumption that he was a good man & my friend.He denied, refused & taunted me. The way I saw it was just like someone who had invested a large amount of money into someone or something they believed to be legitimate & found out they had been swindled,I tried to find out everything I could about this person,to see how badly I had been lied to, I wanted to warn or prevent anyone else from being taken by this fraud & I wanted to recoup my losses.The sad truth is that matters of the heart are not able to be prosecuted in a court of law.He will not pay for what he did to me & my life & the sorrow & turmoil it caused those around me, who truly cared for & loved me, who had to watch my suffering & struggle to deal with this on top
Hi Shyya,
After reading your post, I could relate in several ways. I do remember trying to get the woman I was stalking to look at her behavior – actually I tried to MAKE her look at it and change so that she wouldn’t abandon me. I felt horrible when she left and I too didn’t think I’d ever survive the loss.
I have come to realize that trying to make someone see their flaws and admit to their “unacceptable” behavior, landed me in jail and the woman is still not able to see her part in what happened in our relationship, meanwhile, I’m still paying the price because of legal issues. I also recognize that it wasn’t really her I was angry with, but she triggered past relationships – especially those closest to me (i.e my parents)and I was reliving the same feelings I had experienced so long ago – when I was a child.
When someone behaves in a way that puts their own life at risk, they are addicted. That was true for me – I was addicted to her and addicted to trying to get her to not hurt me, or at least realize how hurt I was. Then I became addicted to seeking revenge.
I sometimes think of her, and still want to make her see how much she hurt me, but now I realize I’m the only one who can take care of my hurt feelings – nobody else. That is the toughest obstacle of all. The best revenge is to live well.
Hope this helps.
Hello again Christine, and hello Shyya…and Swivelchair,
Id like to say I am fine. Emotionally, mentally, even more so physically than before my ordeal with a stalker began. I am fortunate in only a way that my life has been blessed.
I am in a situation with a man who has saved me, guided me quietly and thoughtfully, through a very painful and frightening time. I am safe, my daughter is safe. Literally, the stalker, my ex, has cost me my vehicle…however, I have one still, but by the grace of the new man who has helped me. I am also still able to work, due to this. Literally, I have lost my home as well…shortly after I had reached the point of no fear in my last posting, fear for my daughter prevailed, strange things occurred at my home, compliments of my stalker I believe…however, after my landlord asked me to leave, stating he did not see how I would make it through the winter, this same man has provided shelter for both myself and my child.
At this moment, the stalker still stalks however he can. And after reading the last two posts, I realize he just is what he is, it is as if he too, needs to prove to me how awful, how very wrong i was to leave him. There have been two more actual incidents where he approached me at local gas stations, but never exiting his vehicle…and the police procedure on this is painful, they have to find him close after he runs, after I dial 911…He is always gone.
His anger continues to rage on the social sites I am told. threats lies and just general nonsense. I am freed from this in the safety I have where I sleep at night. Rest has been restored =) I am freed from this in the simple fact that even though I too feel as if I am perhaps a kind and complete woman, not actively TRYING to get him in trouble…but still quietly documenting things as instructed by law enforcement…I do not have to care what he says or does, as long as I remain safe. As long as my daughter remains safe. My best defense is to live well too =)
And after reading the last posts here, I realize in no uncertain terms, stalking is an addiction. Whether intensified or fueled by alcohol or drugs or just mental instability…Stalking is indeed an addictive trait. This is clearly (to me) not OCD. As nicotine offers relief to a cigarette smoker….an email or deliberate social site posting “proving” the victims faults offers relief…until the need arises again. That is addiction, not compulsion.
And yes, Christine, it is almost beautiful and poetic, for me, in my own life to see you say that you are the only one who can take care of your hurt feelings. This is another lesson that the new man in my life has guided me into knowing. And when nobody can hurt you, nobody can affect you in a negative way emotionally, you are complete. I believe a complete person is ready to have a healthy and lasting relationship. Make wise choices. And live.
May you all have peace inside for the new year ahead. Remember, stalkers and victims, every day can be a new day, every moment a new chance to make a healthy choice.
Again, thank you for the discussion board.
I was reading through the above comments, and noticed a question/debate over whether or not stalking is a branch of OCD or an addiction. I actually believe that addictions are in direct relation to OCD. It is very rare to try a drug once and become addicted; you must repeatedly return to the drug, and in order to do THAT, you must first dwell on the thought of that “high” you first experienced. These thought patterns are truly parallel with those of a stalker. They experience some sort of overwhelming emotion, whether good or bad, and dwell on it. Eventually it becomes so intense for them that they take action to satisfy it.
IMHO, I believe that a huge help for those who stalk would be to just let things go and move on. Also, they must realize what drug addicts must– the high is temporary, and there are always consequences. Redirecting their passionate personalities seems key as well. Then again, easier said than done.
Melody, we’re not sure where this comes from, but there is definitely some kind of cognitive mind flip going on (imo) and it seems to fit nicely with an OCD-ish model.
It could happen to you. I never thought in a million years that it would happen to me! I was raped by my stalker, who also happened to be my husbands close. Friend. Here is my Story:
My husband became friends with this guy who we will refer to as “stalker man”. Stalker man worked for a gas utility company and my husband and I owned an automotive shop. This is how they met. He is married with two children, and I was on my second marriage and pregnant when his family and mine became good friends. It all started out fine. One day, while Stalker man was at our home, he made the comment of “I need to find a mistress.. do you know anyone?” I was kidding around and joking since my husband had just been laid off and I stupidly and unknowingly started something by saying “hot damn, how much you paying?”. I was joking. I laughed. He wasn’t.
He knew it too. He knew my husband and how my husband reacts to things… he knew that this was exactly what he needed to keep me silent.
Before I knew it, he had left his wife AGAIN. He came to my husband AGAIN. He swore to me that it had nothing to do with me at all. He said he would never jeopardize his friendship with my husband ever again because my husband was like his big brother. I was vigilant. I watched everything I said. I was careful to not be in close proximity and I tried to stay out of the same rooms that he was in. I did my best to just avoid anything. One day, he (in front of me) just spoke up and said that he needed to talk to me and would like my husbands permission. He said there was water that needed to be put under the bridge. I was curious what he had to say, but was fearful of him wanting to talk to me without my husband present. He promised it would just be outside of the house where hubby could see from the window. I finally agreed. I got out there and he apologized for not taking “no” for an answer. I then asked why he said the things he said in regard to the parking lot. He got a different demeaner, lowered his head and looked at me over his glasses and said, “you know why. I don’t need to explain that to you. But yes, I lied. Not to hurt you…”. I then told him it did hurt me and caused huge issues for me and even took away my last chance to see my father. He never said sorry and I just looked at the ground while he spoke. I guess the water was under the bridge… or so I thought.
Soon after that conversation (there was a lot of us in the house during the conversation but not his wife) he began showing up at my home and bringing me soda’s. Asking me for hugs. Asking me if I wasn’t married if I would ever consider dating a guy like him. Even though I had no interest in him, I didn’t want to hurt his feelings so I said, “of course, you are a good guy.” Unknowingly sparking a small fire into something that would grow very large and out of control. Soon he began to call my home, text my cell phone non stop (he had my phone number because my son stayed the night at their house and I gave all of our numbers to them a year prior). Every time I asked him to stop and that I was uncomfortable, he would then text my husband and talk about killing himself. I was scared and worried. I told my husband that I thought he had a crush on me and my husband’s response was “what did you do to make him think that was okay”. I realized quickly that I couldn’t seek my husbands help in the matter. Through the months, the more stalker man did, the more my husband would blame me.
I don’t know exactly what it was that I did, or said…. but for whatever reason, stalker man left his family. Packed his crap and showed up at our door. He got the approval of my husband to stay at our home. He would pray on me when I was at my weakest points… if I had been drinking or arguing with my husband. During the time he was here, he walked into my bathroom, pulled back the shower curtain and just stood there looking at me. I tried to cover myself, but I didn’t yell. I as alone in what I was experiencing and didn’t really know how to handle what was happening to me. I had NO idea what I was dealing with. Eventually my husband and I were able to talk him into going back home. We invited them to our church and this appeared to be helping them. But the crap didn’t stop….
He called me and asked me to meet him somewhere. He said he wanted to pay me something for the time he was living at our home. I agreed to do so because we needed the money as hubby was still unemployed. He was back with his wife and attending our church. I didn’t think it was wrong, but I definitely wasn’t going to mention the money to my husband because I knew he would be mad that I accepted the money. I met him in the parking lot at Sam’s club. He got into my car and handed me the money. At that moment, I felt this wasn’t a good idea. My “gut” was saying, “don’t take the money”. So I handed it back to him and said, “we are your friend and don’t expect to be paid for that. We really hope that your family gets through these times and know we are here if you need to talk. He then took the money and shoved it into my purse (deep). He took my hand and kissed it. I was VERY uncomfortable with that. He then exited my vehicle as he said, “buy yourself something nice”. After I left, I looked at the amount he shoved in my purse. It was 200 dollars. NOW I have a problem. He now has something over me
Later that day, he begged me to stop at a sub division because he had something he desperately needed to show me. I stopped. He began to show his 401K papers, and the large sums of his paychecks. He then stated that he didn’t expect an answer from me but to “think about it”. He professed how he could provide insurance for all of my children and that I would never have to worry about money ever again. I will admit that it sounded nice to think about not having those worries, but reality was that I was a married woman and he a married man. I had absolutely no attraction to him and no intent in leaving my husband. There was no way I was going to destroy everyone on each sides family just to not have to worry about money…and be with someone I didn’t want to be with. So I said I had to get going and I left.
He left his wife two more times after that meeting. But on the last time I finally (after drinking 4 beers) burst into tears and told my husband and the stalkers wife what had been going on. I didn’t mention the sam’s club parking lot and the money. It was not my biggest concern at the time. My concern was that he was leaving his family over and over and trying to convince me that I should leave my family. It was exhausting and I had had enough. I was doing my best to not “hurt” his feelings… I was afraid he would kill himself. But I had enough and the truth had to come out! So I told about the shower incident, about him calling and texting and begging me to leave my husband and be with him. I thought perhaps he was having some type of mental break and I told his wife he needed some serious mental help. She agreed and decided to meet with him. She met with him and then called me and asked me if I ever met Mike at sams club parking lot. I said, yes… he gave me some money that day. I should have told you. She then said, “okay, that is all I needed to know” and hung up the phone. The deal was, their family keep to themselves from now on, and ours kept to ourselves. We no longer could ALL be friends. Yeah, right! It didn’t go that way.
I got a text calling me a Cu*t out of the blue, the next one was “Skank A$$ Nasty Bi*ch”. Then I noticed that the stalker dude was out of his way by (9 miles?) sitting on the side of the road in his work van every morning and afternoon when I drove my son to work (my son is disabled). Okay… so, after noticing him there so many times, I brought it up to my husband who acted unconcerned. But all of the sudden my husband started driving him to work both in the morning and afternoon. Weird… During that time, my father became very very ill. I packed my bags to spend one last night with him and I texted my husband and told him of my plans. He said it was a good idea. I then texted him that I was on my way to the hopital when he texted me back calling me a liar, a whore and when I begged to know why he was saying this stuff, he wouldn’t tell me. I tried to call him on his cell and he either would answer and hang up the phone, or let it roll to the voice mail. In tears, I turned my car around and headed back home. I couldn’t go sit with my dad feeling the way I did. I had to know what it was that I did so wrong. Turned out, my husband was friends with stalker dude and his wife still. And that time I met stalker dude at the parking lot where he gave me money…. well he told my husband that we were making out and things of that nature. It was so untrue and I was paying the price for his lies. I was so broken hearted. The following day, my father died. I had to deal with it all by myself because my husband was “angry” at me because he believed the stalker. He also refused to attend my father’s funeral. It was so hurtful. Especially when a month later, my husband finally admitted that he had been being their friends behind my back and taking our daughter over to their house to ‘hang out’. I felt so betrayed. Not only could I not depend on my husband to protect me, but I didn’t even have his loyalty. It became obvious that stalker dude was working his magic. He couldn’t get me to leave my husband, so he was trying to convince my husband to leave me.
About 2 weeks later, I had drank quite a few beers while I was cleaning. Stalker dude and hubby were in the garage and I never thought about the drinking as something that would be used to his advantage. My husband and stalker came in the house and ate dinner. Hubby started being a jerk and he and I argued. He left. He left me here with stalker dude. Stalker dude started giving me what I thought was just water and telling me I needed to clear up my head and then call the police on my husband and get a ppo. My husband had thrown a pack of cigarettes at me. I was like, I am not calling the police on my husband. He then closed all my curtains and locked my doors and said we should go upstairs because my husband might try to kill me. I told him no. I was not going up there with him. The upstairs is the bedrooms and bathroom. I knew better. But somehow…. I don’t know what happened, but he had sex with me. I do not remember much after him pulling on my arms trying to get me to go upstairs. I said no. I guess he wasn’t taking no for an answer. I was on my period…so I had a tampon shoved up inside of me in the morning. I asked him what happened. I certainly didn’t drink enough beer to NOT remember. He then said that we had sex and it was the best he had ever had. I yelled at him and told him to leave. He then sat in his work van and texted and asked me to forgive him, I said I couldn’t. Needless to say, I filed a PPO on him and was granted a 5 year PPO. I never filed official rape charges, the police told me that I would be dragged through the mud because I had been drinking. They also said because I can’t remember, how do I know that I said no. I know I said no. I have said NO to him so many times that I don’t know what made him think this was okay. I have never in my life felt so helpless, so violated. I am in Michigan and I will tell you what…. the ppo hasn’t helped one bit. I have turned over logs of him violating. I still get texts from him here and there and they wont do anything about it. I suppose when they find me in the woods dead, or floating in a lake, perhaps then they will see what a danger people like this are. He knows absolutely no boundaries. He doesn’t care who he has to hurt to get what he wants…. The company he works for is completely unaware that he raped me while on call for them. They are also unaware that he has stalked me while working for them. They have no idea what they are employing. I wanted to let them know, but spoke to an attorney that said it would be very unwise to tell them. Apparently because I didn’t file charges, I haven’t proved what he has done. Even though he didn’t fight the PPO and has “BRAGGED” to his budies about sex with me and his “affair” with me. IT WASN’T AN AFFAIR! I still can’t let them know who and what they are employing, because I can be sued for this. Yet, I have to suffer with this man raping me, stalking me and the police and prosecutor doing nothing at all. He even told them we had an affair. Talk about being victimized over and over and over!
I got a text from him on Sept 24 (I think it was him) and called the police and told them. He called me the C*nt word and stuff. The police wouldn’t do anything, or even investigate to see if it was him. I sent his wife a facebook message telling her, but she denied that he would do this (even after everything) and blocked me from being able to let her know of anything in the future. I called the company of the phone after figuring out the company that hosted that number. All they could tell me is that the person with that phone number had their phone shut off.
In other words, it was a trac phone and he changed the number or ditched it. I am in way over my head with this guy and I have nobody that will listen about how dangerous he is. This guy is the most manipulative, selfish person I have ever met. And apparently, there are other people he has done things like this too, but none of them has been to this extent.
Please…. just know that anyone can be a stalker, and anyone can be their victim. Always trust your gut!!!
i apparently stalked a guy at school but i didnt no i was stalking him i was trying to be his friend. he hurt me a lot when he made his friends pick on me and saying i was stalking him, my anger turned powerful and i thought if i said i will kill him if he didnt stop then he would stop, but he didnt. he said he would get me arrested but he chickened out and i still dont see why he calls me a stalker. i have read what the things stalkers do are and some i relate to but in my eyes its not called stalking is called something like caring but having been hurt or just too obsessed to let them go or wanting to have a cool friend like them. its on stalking in my eyes when the other person is so scared for their life or others or when the stalker is becoming a absolute pest or they physically do something like damage property.and for jaded stalkers can be victims too i was one which then made me turn out to be a stalker and a bigger victim. before this guy called me a stalker i was normal and little crazy in a good way but now after all this ive been suicidal and i had to lie to psychiatrists so i wouldn’t be put away im paranoid and i self harm when people put me down. im a victim too and i stalked.
Take it from me…learn to love yourself. It hurts when someone leaves you, but that pain turns to suffering when you don’t let them go. it’s easier to just hurt and allow yourself to feel the sadness without getting engulfed by it. what we fear isn’t as bad as what we project it to be.
I ended up in another relationship after i stopped stalking the other person I was involved with. This relationship came to an end as well because I was too controlling, but this time… I let her go. I feel sad and alone, but i am not suffering now because the focus is on me… where it belongs and I’m finding healthy things to do with other people. I am growing even though the process is slow. I still don’t love myself but I am determined to learn.
Good luck to you. I hope you can let go by forcing yourself to do things with people who DO want to be with you. I’m sure there are several – if you let them.
Thanks for the comment stalkergirl, sincerely.