Neurological correlates of aggressive, hostile-type stalking: the cognitive inflexibility and source memory impairment of OCD topped off with a lack of self awareness.
I didn’t realize January is National Stalking Awareness Month assuming HR Resolution 46 (January 2009) is passed:
Whereas an estimated 1,006,970 women and 370,990 men are stalked annually in the United States and, in the majority of such cases, the person is stalked by someone who is not a stranger;
Whereas 81 percent of women, who are stalked by an intimate partner, are also physically assaulted by that partner, and 76 percent of women, who are killed by an intimate partner, were also stalked by that intimate partner;
Whereas 74.2 percent of stalking victims reported that the stalking partner interfered with their employment, 26 percent of stalking victims lose time from work as a result of their victimization, and 7 percent never return to work;
Whereas stalking victims are forced to take drastic measures to protect themselves, such as relocating, changing their addresses, changing their identities, changing jobs, and obtaining protection orders;
Whereas stalking is a crime that cuts across race, culture, gender, age, sexual orientation, physical and mental ability, and economic status;
Whereas stalking is a crime under Federal law and under the laws of all 50 States and the District of Columbia;
Whereas rapid advancements in technology have made cyber-surveillance the new frontier in stalking;
Whereas there are national organizations, local victim service organizations, prosecutors’ offices, and police departments that stand ready to assist stalking victims and who are working diligently to craft competent, thorough, and innovative responses to stalking;
Whereas there is a need to enhance the criminal justice system’s response to stalking and stalking victims, including aggressive investigation and prosecution; and Whereas the House of Representatives urges the establishment of January 2009 as National Stalking Awareness Month. . .
So, why do stalkers stalk? In the national Stalking Victimization Study, victims were asked about a presumed motivation for their stalkers (Table 6). Out of 3,416,460 victims:
- 36.6% said stalker’s motivation was “Retaliation/anger/spite”
- 32.9% said “Control”
- 23.4% said “mentally ill/emotionally unstable”.
So. . . again, why do stalkers stalk — what is this psychopathology?
First, here’s the law enforcement guidelines for “stalking”
Stalking can be defined as a pattern of repeated and unwanted attention, harassment, contact, or any other course of conduct directed at a specific person that would cause a reasonable person to feel fear.
It is a course of conduct that can include:
- Repeated, unwanted, intrusive, and frightening communications from the perpetrator by phone, mail, and/or email
- Repeatedly leaving or sending victim unwanted items, presents, or flowers
- Following or laying in wait for the victim at places such as home, school, work, or recreation place
- Making direct or indirect threats to harm the victim, the victim’s children, relatives, friends, or pets.
- Damaging or threatening to damage the victim’s property
- Harassing victim through the internet
- Posting information or spreading rumors about the victim on the internet, in a public place, or by word of mouth
- Obtaining personal information about the victim by accessing public records, using internet search services, hiring private investigators, going through the victim’s garbage, following the victim, contacting victim’s friends, family work, or neighbors, etc.
Source: Stalking Resource Center, National Center for Victims of Crime
Fear and intimidation as a means of unleashing vindictive aggressive hostility is probably pretty common. Here’s an instructive article about a Harvard educated lawyer stalked and murdered by an ex. Tragically, this is only one of thousands and thousands and thousands of stories ending in murder of the victim. This woman even worked for a time in a public defender’s office defending domestic violence defendants – she knew the system. She had gotten a protective order against her stalker at the time of her murder. Apparently she had moved across the country, to Seattle, left the law, and got a gig at Microsoft working on gaming to avoid this guy. No matter; he followed her, shot her to death in a parking lot, and then killed himself. (If you go to the link, read the comments. Very scary.)
Putting all of this together, aggressive, hostility-based stalking seems like a deficit in the parietal region, associated with a sense of self as well as self-referential memories. This, combined with a particularly malignant form of obsessive-compulsive disorder (“OCD”). This is just a preliminary connect-the-dots. Finding research is tough — there are no brain scans of stalkers, and the shrinks with behavioral profiles don’t seem to be talking to the imaging departments:
1. Cognitive inflexibility: similar to those with OCD, the fronto-striatal loop seems to be stuck: stalkers so objectify the targets that beyond mere “obsession”, there is a compulsive need to “complete” the stalking.
2. Impairment of “source memory” (memory of where or from whom you learned something): People with OCD have impaired source memory functioning. If you can’t remember who told you something, then no one has credibility, I suppose, and you sort of re-write history to suit your current state of funk. Source memory is pulled out of the right inferior parietal region – an area associated with a sense of “self”.
3. Lack of perspective taking: Stalkers don’t see things from the victim’s point of view. This much is apparent from behavior: they plainly screw things up. If you want a romantic interest to return, you don’t harass them. Why would someone want to be around the person who harasses and intimidates them? I asked a rage-a-holic this once — “What do you think other people think of you when you rage at them?” and this person went stone silent. Stumped. I don’t think this had occurred to them. I dunno, but seems like a theory of mind deficit, found in the fronto-parietal loop. (That link is an interesting study — putting a transcranial magnet by the brain regions involved in theory-of-mind results in subjects have a tough time figuring out stories about what other people are thinking).
Is anyone out there a stalker? Why do/did you stalk? Why did you stop or is there anything your victim can do to convince you to stop? Was the fear you instilled in your victim satisfactory to you, and in what way? Are you diagnosed with a clinical condition or on psych meds?
I’m serious. What is your thought process?
I don’t expect anyone will answer.
Here’s John Lennon, “Jealous Guy”:
Thanks C. You should write a book.
Or, if you have written a book, send over the link I’ll put up a notice.
The book’s in progress… I will send you a link when it’s finished.
Thanks
Wha? Seriously?
I was writing for a while, but then it turned out that by doing so, it was triggering the obsessive thoughts and I had to put it down until I could regain a healthier state of mind. It seems as though I am okay now writing without that happeneing. So…. yes I am doing this.
Treatment for stalking: put lesions in the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex / orbitofrontal cortex by shooting a microwave through the “patients” forehead.
does that make sense? or would it just make things worse? side-effects?
I am pretty sure I am a stalker. I get obsessed with one person and hten i have to find out everything about them. I even went so far as to fly half way around the world to re-connect with a guy that I met once (mind you) because I was convinced I was in love. I even dumped my boyfriend of two years. Never did it cross my mind how he would feel. All of the emails i sent him and phone calls harassing him non-stop in order to obtain what I wanted. I still am having problems. I try to tell myself not to write him anymore or call or show up where he hangs out but its really fucking difficult ending the cycle. I feel bad. He saw me out with my friends a few week ago and i could see the sheer annoyance “panic”cross his face… and for the first time I realized how unwanted my attention towards him was. I am not unattractive by any means. I have tons of guys who want me. So, it completely because of my actions.
Thanks for the comment SAGA.
This is great. Thank you stalkers for showing the way you think. You understand that for us, on the receiving end, we are totally clueless — why would threats and harassment ever want us to be in any kind of association with the stalker?
And you write that it is not something that even entered your mind because you were immersed in the process of pursuit.
Evolutionary biologists (who have an explanation for everything) might say that this is the hunting instinct taken a left turn.
If your target would have called you, and turned out to be a dud, would you have continued to stalk? Or does it not even matter what the target does or says because you are so immersed in the process?
Is this simply a matter of “winning”?
Or, does some other distraction — like (I’m guessing) pursuing a sales lead or some kind of work project — reduce the stalking behavior because you’re onto some other all-consuming project?
I’ve also had problems stalking a guy very similar to what SAGA described, however, I feel that I’m very aware that my behavior is wrong even as I’m doing it. I’m afraid to be seen by the guy I’m pursuing because I know it will disturb him and because it will embarrass me to be caught. I try to watch him leaving work ever day (and sometimes going to work if I have the morning available). I also tell myself not to do it anymore, but I have trouble breaking the pattern.
In response to swivelchair, I can say that I’m fully aware that the guy I’m pursuing probably wouldn’t make an ideal lover in the long-run. He’s an angry, self-hating person, and the sex I had with him was fairly average, but even being aware of this hasn’t stopped me from pursuing him. I’ve been pursuing him because I enjoy looking at him. Seeing him walk by brings me great joy that lasts for hours, like a drug.
I’ve never been like this with anyone. I want the stalking to stop because I’m disgusted with myself for it and because I care enough about the person I’m stalking that I don’t want to frighten or disturb him. I don’t do drugs or drink, but this feels like a full-on addiction to me because I find that I’m not able to control my behavior.
una girl, i know what you mean. i have been called a stalker before and well it made my life hell and as i have found out recently it has messed up my future, and because of the past guy i liked and “stalked” i have now begun to do the same thign with a guy i think i am in love with. it’s now becoming a huge cycle for me and i have been so scared of what i have done and what i’m doing and might do that i even wanted to go to a mental hospital but apparently they do not help, so i feel so alone in all of this. the worst part is, that i really want the guy i’m stalking to know that i don’t mean any harm and to just let me tell him i have a problem but because hes scared of me he wont listen. so it’s all getting worst and the cycle will never end. i feel like i’ll be labled a stalker for ever and it’s starting to affect my future deeply. i think that if you can, tell him you like him or what ever. just simply tell him the truth because then if someone tells him that they see you starign at him all day then it’ll hurt you when you find out, it hurt me when i found outstuff like that. and if you can say something like you have no control and that you do want it to stop. it’ll show him that you do regret the things that you do and that you are aware it’s wrong. i think that honesty can help people to understand you more and that then if the guy does think your weird he just really is horrible and is not open minded.
I found your article interesting and thought I would be that person who “wouldn’t” reply but I actually just made amends to two girls who i stalked in high school. And you might find this interesting, i hadn’t seen/talked/heard from them in about four years until I facebook apologised to them earlier today, and as soon as i had made contact, and then heard back from one of them, the obsession began. this time i didnt follow it, i sent the appropriate email and nothing more, but the obsession to do more is in my head. It’s quite frustrating!
I’m diagnosed with something called schizoaffective, but I’m not sure it covers this…I’m going to specifically make an appointment with my psych to ask her why I get like this, because it’s driving me crazy!
Thankfully I haven’t been like this with many people (three including the two mentioned above) but it’s an awful feeling. I describe it like a drug, it used to be like I was hanging out for it so bad, and then I’d see them at school, or I’d call them and hear their voice and it was like instant relief…until it had been five minutes since i last made contact…
So I hope someday someone finds an answer. though i wouldnt say i was an aggressive hostile stalker.
apfmh, Interesting. So it is more like a relief of pain, rather than a reward. Similar to addiction.
Thanks very much for the contributing to the dialog – there are lots of studies on stalking targets, but few on the people who are doing the stalking. From the comments here, it seems that the stalkers themselves don’t even understand why they do it (even if they come up with some ex post facto rationale).
(Disclaimer, disclaimer, we are in no way qualified to advise anyone about anything and are not any kind of healthcare professional. Sigh. Readers – here is the Wikipedia entry for Schizoaffective Disorder)
It’s very similar to addiction, now that you say that. I am actually a [recovering] alcoholic also, and it’s the same kind of ‘relief’ I feel, even though I know both things will end badly.
apfmh, thanks for the comment. I’ve wondered if stalking (that is, retaliatory or revenge stalking) is a sort of compulsion.
I can agree with the person above that any contact with the stalkee can arouse predatory impulses or obsessive impulses even if significant time has elapsed since they last had any contact with the person.
It has been over a year since I have seen the woman I was stalking outside of court. Two weeks ago while driving, a person walked in front of me to cross the street and it was her. I had a physical reaction in the pit of my stomach that I can describe as the “fight or flight” reaction. I felt a surge of adrenaline that reproduced the high I used to feel from any contact with her, but to a lesser degree.
Even though I had a thought to turn my car around and make a comment to her, I didn’t react to the impulse because I knew that even one action would lead to another, just like one drink in an alcoholic leads to another. I had to experience what it felt like (longterm) not reacting to my impulses (stalking)to see that I actually liked that feeling better – sort of like how an addict has to experience an extended period of sobriety in order to see that they enjoy that more than active addiction.
It is a obsessive/compulsive disorder because I had to learn that I could sit with the feelings and they would eventually dissipate all on their own without reacting. I do know that if I was to react to seeing her, it would not have stopped there and would have aroused the same obsession and I don’t want to be in that prison again. I am not cured, so I have to avoid certain behaviors to not get caught up with stalking behavior. I also have to avoid certain personalities that can trigger that reaction in me and I recognize them now.
Hope my experience helps.
C.
C- We think this is incredibly instructive.
Make no mistake, OCD, like everything else in life, is rooted in biology. (We just did a PUBMED check up and there’s lots of new research, so we’ll put up a blog post). It sounds like you have done some neuron remodeling and good for you.
And, question (if you don’t mind the imposition): What kind of personalities trigger the “stalking” or other negative reaction in you?
The reason for asking is to see if this is a mis-interpretation of social cues — like, a neutral face being misinterpreted as an angry face. The thought is that if there is a “misperception” in facial emotion recognition, that also has some biological correlates. So, if you see a neutral face, but interpret that as an angry face, you may react appropriately for your misinterpretation.
When you write that book and when you put it up on Amazon, we’ll put up a link. Better yet, send over excerpts for us to publish. Seriously, are there any books written by former stalkers who are so self aware?
“What is it that makes people want to waste their stalking/getting even/seeking revenge and not move on and have a productive life? There seems to be some wiring that gets people “stuck” in the thought process of “fairness” and therefore getting even.”
This hits the nail on the head for me. I, like probably every stalker reading this, would like nothing more than to have the ability to “move on”. My case: The woman terminated her relationship with me unexpectedly. I do not know the reason(s) for it but have a strong suspicion it involves another man, among other reasons. It is sort of a blindside that has happened to me before and ended up with me stalking/harassing the victim. The most recent time before this current behaviour was 8 years ago. I can look back at the prior episode and see how screwed up I was and the stupid things I did to harass this woman, which lasted for 8 long months. I went through the apologizing, pleading, wanting her back thing with the woman 8 years ago, and it worked a couple times. This time around I am not doing that, because I have enough clarity to realize how silly that is. As someone commented previously on this forum, if they leave you, it is their loss, and I’m trying really hard to see things that way. On the other hand, there is this urge to actually confront her about why she dumped me, which I realize would turn really ugly. (I dated a woman once when, after I broke things off with her, she texted me at midnight one night saying that she was going to make the 100 mile trip to come to my house. That scared the crap out of me and I waited in another room with my gun all night long. So I do have that perspective of the one being harassed.)
I don’t feel that my stalking is to instill any kind of fear in her (at least this go round), as the last thing I want to do is let her know that I am stalking her, as I know the ramifications of that happening would be bad. For me, my hurt demands revenge, and stalking is a means to “gather intel” on the “target” in case, ultimately, I want to actually go through and take her out. There is also the incredible high (as I’ve seen other people mention on here) of actually seeing her again and wanting to be with her, touch her, smell her….I don’t know about the OCD aspect of this for me, because as I understand OCD, I don’t have it. I do believe it’s pretty much a “she hurt me now I’m gonna fuck her over” revenge thing.
I’m your typical 45yo loner, haven’t had a friend in 25 years, social misfit. I’m sure I have some antisocial/cluster/personality disorder thing going on. I’ve never done drugs and rarely drink alcohol. My greatest fear is that I have exhibited this stalking behaviour before, a total of 5 times now, and it seems like I will continue to exhibit this in the future. That is scary. I have had relationships which have ended “normally” but usually I was the one doing the dumping in those cases, so I guess maybe there is some control element with me. I did go to my doctor this week and had him prescribe an SSRI for me. I hope it does something.
My question as a stalker to “normal” people is, how do you just move on after being hurt when a relationship ends? How do you avoid falling into that pit like I and other stalkers have?
Fantastic forum by the way. In a weird way it’s almost therapeutic to see there are other people as screwed up as me. I can especially relate to Christine’s experiences.
S-Thank you for your perspective. As you probably know from reading here, we’re not qualified to advise anyone about anything, so we can’t answer any of your questions. All we can say is that, from the perspective of being a stalkee, we wondered why a stalker would waste so much time on us, just as a cognitive matter (ignoring the emotion for a moment). That’s why we thought it might be some kind of OCD or even “hoarding” in a way. In general, as to how to move on, the brain is wired for “justice” and “fairness” and pain from social exclusin lights up areas in the brain related to physical pain. (Here’s a recent paper).
Frankly, your post scared us. Will you print it out and show it to your doctor?
*Note to readers, we have no idea who is for real and who is not.
I have “stalked” since I was 17 years old. When my boyfriend broke up with me, however, it was his parents, not him, whom I stalked. I “stalked” a teacher, a professor in college, a mentor while in college and after, and then I began “stalking” my therapist. When I finally confessed, I did so because I was so obsessed with reading his emails once I figured out his password. He wasn’t happy, but he let me stay as a client. That’s when we learned that I have OCD. I never hurt anyone, and never would; my driving force was to be intimate like close friends. It back-fired every time. My “stalking” drove people away, even though they never knew about the physical following and staking-out, because I couldn’t stop calling, visiting, sending inappropriate emails and poems. It was such a strain on me -not only because it kept me away from work- because no matter what I did, the anxiety never went away. Finally my psychiatrist prescribed 100 mg of Luvox for the OCD. I was able to stop my compulsions with the help of Luvox, but it had to be raised to 200 mg to tame the obsession with my therapist. I came forward with this about 4 years ago, yet it’s a constant worry and dread that my therapist dislikes me for what I had done, even though cognitively I know he’s fond of me. However, I still obsess, and occassionally act on a small compulsion that I regret the next day, in hopes of getting closer to my therapist. Ironically, it’s only pushed him away.
JJ – Thank you for your comment.
OCD eh? We thought it was more of a compulsion than reward-driven (although I suppose compulsions are something of a reward in themselves). Glad you seem to have it managed.
Question: Do any stalkers out there with OCD also have trichotillomania (hair pulling, eyelash pulling, nail picking)?
To answer your question about the type of personality that may trigger my stalking behavior is someone who disguises aggression as assertiveness, or a woman who I think is “hardened” or “cold.” It has been my experience that I try to get their approval and when I think I have received (at least to some degree), I become obsessed with gaining an even stronger approval.
I think that dynamic reaches a point where the person is unwilling or unable to “soften” any more than they have – they have reached their capacity. When they begin to detach or I perceive them as detaching, my gratification reaches its peak – then it becomes a power/control issue, and I get obsesses with “making” them see their behavior or change it. It’s like chasing a high from a drug…you need it to be more potent or take more of it to get the same effect. I needed more of her approval.
So I have anger toward women who fit the profile of being blunt, rude, callous, arrogant. The woman I stalked liked to shock people by being blatantly direct even if it hurt the other person, but she seemed to secretly get enjoyment out of it and that is what triggered my rage. I avoid people who make my lip curl when I hear them speak – the ones who think they are better than and snicker when they hurt other’s feelings.
Hit the nail on the head: “It has been my experience that I try to get their approval and when I think I have received (at least to some degree), I become obsessed with gaining an even stronger approval.” Same exact way with me…
About 10 years ago I was in love with a woman and we had a 2 year torrid affair together. I had never stalked anyone before, either in person or online. As the affair went sour, I was increasingly unable to reach her. She was cruel, even masochistic, and without explaining herself or showing any compassion started drifting away and becoming more inacessible. I grew to hate her and also missed her miserable at the same time. Since I was unable to be close to her and she coldly ended our relationship, breaking into her email was what I chose to do. I gave me two sources of “satisfaction”–first it was the only way I could in some way have access to her life, and it also gave me feelings of revenge since I knew it was distressing for her. I felt betrayed and used and so upset by the way she coldly disappeared. This was a way of getting back at her and also knowing her life even though she tried to shut me out of it. that was my motivation.
Francisco… that was well said and I experienced similar motivations for stalking as with Jan.
Have you stalked anyone since? Do you still think about that woman you?
I haven’t acted out for a year and a half (initially due to the intervention of authorities), nor do I have the desire any longer. I still think of the woman I stalked often as if she were a part of me, but the obsession has been lifted – what a relief! I do not fool myself however because I know that if I were to act out in anyway, it would rekindle the predator in me and I prefer to keep the beast in hibernation.
This new behavior of not pursuing another I like much better and that is my reward (the experience of releif from the obsession). I had to experience it for myself – nobody else could tell me differently… i didn’t believe them, but I can believe my own experiences.
@Christine
I still think about her, although as time passes less and less so. Fortunately I’ve grown numb to the whole thing. I have not stalked anyone since or had the impulse to, fortunately.
best
C- Where’s the book?
I am working on it slowly, there have been several road blocks along with selling my home and purchasing another. I am determined to finish.
C – Good luck. As you can see there is great market demand for the material (“Confessions of a stalker”? “Advice from a former stalker”?)
I am being stalked by a revenge stalker but found myself stalking him also. When we met we were both very upset and found each other very attractive.
For me, I was happy when he came by. He was charming and good looking. For a couple of moments I forgot about my problems. I put a stop to any potential physical relationship and he was visibly hurt. When he stopped coming by I “missed” him and couldn’t get him out of my head.
I found him on a social media site and messaged him. He didn’t respond to a second message and I was left wondering why since he was ready to go at one point and here I was looking to start a relationship. I was hurt now. I noticed different cars coming by my work with him in them(and looking into my work), also noticed those same cars always parked at local motels (me stalking). I did an on-line search on him. When I couldn’t stop looking into the motel lots I realized I was obsessed and had to stop.
I made a point not to look in cars, at all or in motel lots. I tried to keep myself busy so that he comes across my mind less often.
What helped me break the stalking was when I realized that I was stalking also. I wanted a romantic relationship. He, on the other hand, has followed me around when I go out but has never come up to me and talked to me. He let’s me know he’s around by doing creepy things. He harasses me when I go out and has his friends harass me(machismo, ego boost) and tries to put me in my place (control).
I can’t stop thinking about him because he is still followig me around (for at least a year). This is not healthy and not the kind of relationship I want or deserve.
M – thanks for the comment.
We’re going to ask a question to revenge stalkers everywhere:
Is this a behavior you want to continue?
Or would you rather stop and move on with your life but you don’t know how?
We’re seriously asking because, as we’ve opined before, we just don’t get revenge stalking. A number of comments here have indicated that stalkers would otherwise rather move on with their lives, but for something of a compulsion/obsession/reward-based addiction.
I have snooped. I might start revenge stalking.
I’m 41, male, very athletic, intelligent, educated and have plenty of resources.
I started snooping when I was a kid. First it was wanting to get a sexual thrill from my step-mother (later dad’s girlfriend’s) undergarments. I also snooped through my dad’s drafts (he was a writer).
I remember getting a huge thrill doing that. You feel a bit scared, but mostly pumped. It is very addictive.
Later, I got busted while snooping through a woman’s house. I was looking for undergarments to steal. The cops caught me. I’d been walking down the street and saw an entry. I was drawn in, like a moth to flame.
When I was at university, I’d go through the garbage of my neighbors. I’d also go on tours and search the trash of the other students. I was eager to find interesting/sexy things.
When I lived in the city, I had a very stressful, high-paying job downtown. At night I couldn’t sleep (caffeine?) so I’d go through the garbage of people and businesses. The photo studio had cool stuff – prints of pictures.
Many years later, my wife was cheating on me. I recompiled her browser, makign a version that would dump out what she entered. That allowed me to get her passwords and then crack her email accounts. We’ve been divorced for years, but every now and then I go through her accounts and read her emails.
Clearly I don’t respect the boudnaries of others. I’ve got an obsessive need to find stuff out. It started when I was young, as mentioned above.
I’ve been dating a woman. I can’t tell where we stand. To some extent, she’s giving me the brushoff. I don’t want to ask her, because it would make me seem weak. Also, I’ve been dating around, and would rather not have to talk/lie about it.
I’ve been thinking maybe I should crack her online accounts, put GPS locators on her vehicles and perhaps surveil her. I’d prefer to do stuff electronically and via GPS (perhaps only confronting her while she’s on a secret date by “bumping” into her).
At the same time, I know I should be focusing my efforts on improving my life. E.g. meeting more chicks. If I had more cuties [], I’d probably dump her, just to punish her.
Also, I think to some extent I may be a sociopath. I’m sadistic, low-empathy, transgressive and impulsive. I have a history of violating the rights of other. I don’t feel remose, just regret at getting caught.
E.g. I poisoned my neighbor’s dog. They let it out and it bothered my girlfriend. The first time I poisoned a dog, I was nervous. I was afraid of getting caught. The dog died. They got another dog. I was hoping to poison it, just to make a point, but they kept it fairly isolated, so I would have had to risk a lot to get it. So that one got away. Those neighbors moved out.
Months later, I found some dog crap on my lawn. It took me seconds to grab the leftover doggy treats and lay it out. No remorse. Just pure action. I’m the zen dog poisoner!
That reminds me of what I’ve read about serial killers. The first one is hard. The second a bit tougher. From then on, it’s all technique.
When I was a kid, my family had a neighbor who rented out his house to section 8 tentants. They were dirtbags. I asked my family, “why don’t you just burn the house down.” The laughed at me, thinking I was telling a joke. Of course I was serious. I thought about it later and realized, I’m probably a sociopath.
If you’ve got questions, I’d be happy to address them.
If you’ve got advice for me on what I should do, I’m all ears.
SD, thank you for your comment. We’re always fascinated by sociopaths (even self-diagnosed) who are good writers. To us, it’s like finding a Yeti who enjoys prose. We edited it to be more PG, although given the subject matter it’s probably futile. But we’d appreciate any reply comments if you could try to keep it to PG.
We believe sociopathy is biological. There are particular areas in the brain/particular proteins that relate to affiliative behavior. We guess that the need to have power over others is a proxy for a lack of the ability to bond to others. Mother nature makes lots of compensatory mechanisms in the brain, and our theory is that if you can’t feel affiliation toward others, you probably feel a double dose of power, and even that’s probably not very satisfying. The whole field is now just gaining legitimacy, we gather, from mainstream science. And so your self-awareness could be useful to study. Our main gripe is that most studies on sociopaths (or psychopaths, we use the term interchangeably) are on those who are unsuccessful — they’re in jail. We assumed from your comment that you are otherwise fully functioning in society.
And so, Mr. Successful Sociopath, we do have questions, and our readers would really be interested in seeing your response:
When you feel power, what’s it like?
If you were to guess, is it a dopamine rush? (Thrill, like playing a video game)
Or more like a sense of relief, like someone stopping standing on your foot? Or satisfying an addiction? (You mention your snooping was like an addiction you wanted to stop but couldn’t, if we interpret your comment correctly).
And: Is it only power over other people that make you feel t hat way, or is it any kind of power (like, say, if you play video games or something not involving another person)?
This would be interesting to know. In behavioral economics, people tend to get revenge in experiments involving other people dividing up money unfairly, but not in experiments where a robot divides up money the same exact unfair way.
On the one hand, your comment points to your total lack of affiliation with others (human or animal). On the other hand, your comment indicates that you do have a negative affiliation, e.g., seeking revenge, or maybe just curiosity or storing information to use later in some sort of power play. We’d like to understand if sociopaths (or psychopaths, we use the term interchangeably) see others as “robots,” but if you do, then you wouldn’t be seeking revenge. We wonder what that’s all about. It’s as though you do have the ability to bond with others, but only in the most negative aspects. So we don’t want to discount your biological affiliative systems completely.
Historical questions:
Any family members you think are sociopaths?
Any addictions?
Any sudden personality changes (sports head injuries, etc. we’re guessing not as you begin your history as a child)
OCD? Any other compulsions/obsessions?
Schizophrenia? Synesthesia? (We’re asking because these conditions relate to white matter connections, and reports show that psychopathy relates to white matter problems).
Do you have lucid dreams? (We’re asking this because psychopaths have some brain disconnects in their white matter, and we wonder if there is a lack of lucid dreaming associated with that, sort of like a platypus brain that doesn’t have some of the more modern mammalian connections).(But, if you are addicted to anything that may disrupt the whole sleep/dream cycle, so who knows).
Readers: As usual, we don’t know who’s for real and who is not, so take this for what it’s worth. Plus we’re just an anonymous blogger and not qualified to advise anyone about anything.
swivelchair: SD, thank you for your comment. We’re always fascinated by sociopaths (even self-diagnosed) who are good writers. To us, it’s like finding a Yeti who enjoys prose. We edited it to be more PG, although given the subject matter it’s probably futile. But we’d appreciate any reply comments if you could try to keep it to PG.
SD: So you think I’m a sociopath? I was hoping I wasn’t. There really are people that I care a lot about (affiliative behavior). I’m very moral with them, although I’m always somewhat manipulative with them to; I can’t help it. Also, I’ll keep my reply PG to make it easy for you.
swivelchair: We believe sociopathy is biological. There are particular areas in the brain/particular proteins that relate to affiliative behavior. We guess that the need to have power over others is a proxy for a lack of the ability to bond to others. Mother nature makes lots of compensatory mechanisms in the brain, and our theory is that if you can’t feel affiliation toward others, you probably feel a double dose of power, and even that’s probably not very satisfying. The whole field is now just gaining legitimacy, we gather, from mainstream science. And so your self-awareness could be useful to study. Our main gripe is that most studies on sociopaths (or psychopaths, we use the term interchangeably) are on those who are unsuccessful — they’re in jail. We assumed from your comment that you are otherwise fully functioning in society.
SD: I’ve definitely got some affiliative behavior. I’ve got some close friends. I woudln’t screw them over without feeling bad. I’m quite ethnocentric – in the abstract sense. E.g. I’d be downright happy to live (and work or EVEN VOLUNTEER in the oppression business) in a fascist society that oppressed or exterminated the people non-whites. But that doesn’t mean I like all whites; of course a bunch of them piss me off. I’d definitely like to see much of humanity get tortured to death or just simply killed.
SD: In terms of functioning in society, I’ve made a lot of money, been married, etc. I actually found an married a woman who was as ethnocentric and misanthropic as me; we actually see eye to eye on stuff. I knew I loved her when she said if she gave birth to a retard, she’d kill it. We agreed that if that happened, we’d kill and cover it up together. For a female she’s clearly an outlier. I will probably always consider her my lifelong soulmate.
sviwelchair: When you feel power, what’s it like?
If you were to guess, is it a dopamine rush? (Thrill, like playing a video game) Or more like a sense of relief, like someone stopping standing on your foot? Or satisfying an addiction? (You mention your snooping was like an addiction you wanted to stop but couldn’t, if we interpret your comment correctly).
SD: Typically dopamine rush and also satisfying an addiction. Because I easily get addicted to anything that gives me a rush.
swivelchair: Is it only power over other people that make you feel t hat way, or is it any kind of power (like, say, if you play video games or something not involving another person)?
This would be interesting to know. In behavioral economics, people tend to get revenge in experiments involving other people dividing up money unfairly, but not in experiments where a robot divides up money the same exact unfair way.
SD: I’ve been addicted to videogames. I don’t play them now. When it comes to revenge, I only feel that way about people. So yeah, negative affiliation comes easy to me.
swivelchair: On the one hand, your comment points to your total lack of affiliation with others (human or animal). On the other hand, your comment indicates that you do have a negative affiliation, e.g., seeking revenge, or maybe just curiosity or storing information to use later in some sort of power play. We’d like to understand if sociopaths (or psychopaths, we use the term interchangeably) see others as “robots,” but if you do, then you wouldn’t be seeking revenge. We wonder what that’s all about. It’s as though you do have the ability to bond with others, but only in the most negative aspects. So we don’t want to discount your biological affiliative systems completely.
SD: Hey, I’ve got affiliation with others. I care a very small number of people. That said, I’m manipulative with pretty much all of them – I can’t help it.
I am extremely vengeful. When people do me wrong, I feel there’s a score that must be settled. Of course, I don’t feel that way about animals or inanimate objects.
I tend to think of all of us as robots made out of meat. What else could we be? If you take the materialist view of things, we are all giant chemical reactions. The universe is like a big computer, where the parts are atoms. Humans act a lot like other mammals; we aren’t special. I’ve really started to observe people more in the last few years, and often they seem like robots to me.
I have empathy. If I hear people scream, and there’s no context, I’ll get upset. But if I thought the screamers had it coming, it’d be like music to my ears. I’m aware this is sadistic.
svivelchair: Historical questions: Any family members you think are sociopaths?
SD: — yes, one grandfather. Confirmed psychopath and probably schizo. Raped at least one of his own kids. Beat all his kids. If he were alive, we’d probably see eye to eye on things. We’d probably enjoy committing crimes together. E.g. if we decided black males wearing “thug” clothing deserved elimination, we’d set about doing it. That grandfather was the father of my mother. She was a paranoid schizophrenic. She killed herself.
swivelchair: Any addictions?
SD: porn, internet use, caffeine. I’m fairly prone to addiction.
swivelchair: Any sudden personality changes (sports head injuries, etc. we’re guessing not as you begin your history as a child)
OCD? Any other compulsions/obsessions?
SD: No injuries. I had an incredibly stressful childhood: mother committed suicide. Was raised by hostile stepmother and neglected by biological father.
SD: In general, I’ve been fairly compulsive and obsessive my whole life, but the details change depending on circumstances.
swivelchair: Schizophrenia? Synesthesia? (We’re asking because these conditions relate to white matter connections, and reports show that psychopathy relates to white matter problems).
SD: I tend towards paranoia. I have been paranoid to the point of being out of touch with reality for weeks at a time. About 15 years ago, I thought my mayor was perhaps tapping my phone. I knew it was nuts when it was thinking that way, so I knew to not take it seriously. The concerns went away after a while. I hate shrinks and don’t trust them, otherwise I might have sought therapy.
swivelchair: Do you have lucid dreams? (We’re asking this because psychopaths have some brain disconnects in their white matter, and we wonder if there is a lack of lucid dreaming associated with that, sort of like a platypus brain that doesn’t have some of the more modern mammalian connections).(But, if you are addicted to anything that may disrupt the whole sleep/dream cycle, so who knows).
SD: I haven’t had good sleep for years, so lucid dreaming doesn’t happen much. I used to do it a bit – but I always seemed to get excited and quickly wake up.
SD: Just as men are worse at reading emotions of others than women, I have a hard time reading peoples’ emotions. Without meaning to, I tend to offend and shock people. I wish I could avoid this; it gets me in trouble. I feel like I’ve got a disability.
SD: Also, I’ve given my morality/criminality more thought. If I thought I could kill people and get away with it, I’d probably do it, if only for the fun. Also, I like developing new skills. I’d be afraid of getting caught if I did it alone though. I wish my grandfather were alive. Just as my other family couldn’t conceive of arson to solve problems, my grandfather and I would gravitate to it. That seems screwed up, but that’s what we’d do. Now that I’m older and understand that not everyone thinks the way I do, I wish he was alive, as I’d have some like-minded company.
Another thing: one thing that bothers me is to think that I’ll get old and won’t have killed a bunch of people that I knew my entire life deserved killing. Just as there’s no point in dying with money in the bank, what’s the point of dying without taking out a bunch of one’s enemies?
SD: oh, swivelchair, I forgot. My father is a terrible narcissist (NPD). I don’t think he’s got the socipathic tendencies that I’ve got. But he is an absolute narcissist. It blows everyone away. I remember one girlfriend that met him. I warned her in advance, “he’s the biggest narcissist you’ll ever meet.” After meeting him, she explained, that although I’d said that that, she really wasn’t prepared. During their meeting, he did his normal thing: talk about himself and his hobbies all night long. He asked two perfunctory questions about me and how I was doing. He cut the answers short by explaining that he was happy to hear the good news. Basically, he’s a total narcissistic douchebag.
Finally, as regards psychometric tests, I have an IQ two std devs above the norm. I’m ridiculously gifted (99%) at quantitative reasoning. My verbal IQ skills are very high. My visio-spatial IQ is a lot weaker.
SD – Wow, thanks for the response.
Thank you for keeping it PG so we can discuss. We’ve deleted a lot of otherwise interesting comments that were unsuitable for the site.
We have no idea about anyone being a sociopath, we were only going on your stated suspicions. We have no idea (and, as we indicated, we have no idea who is for real and who isn’t). So we’re taking your comment at face value. (Again, we’re totally guessing at all of this, disclaimer, disclaimer, and readers, consider that we’re an anonymous blogger, and consider that SD may be a total fake, so give this all a big grain of salt). It’s a learning experience. Let’s say this is all hypothetical and get on with a discussion.
SD, your family history is interesting. Psychopathy begat schizophrenia begat paranoia/addiction prone/possible psychopathy or psychopathy-lite. Interesting. As far as the Y chromosome, narcissism, if you break it into constituent elements, is comprised of low affective empathy, and low ability to have self introspection, we think. Reports indicate that all of these clinical categories relate to brain anatomy. You say you are highly intelligent but your visio-spatial IQ is weak. You have in-group territoriality and out-group aggressive hostility. You bond with a small “group” to whom you express loyalty. You consider others as meat “robots,” in general. (We’re ignoring your more dramatic remarks only because we’re in no way any kind of clinical anything and have no clue how to handle. So we’re considering this as a hyopthetical.)
Could this all be roughly categorized, in the first instance, as “perception” mis-wiring?
Plain vanilla paranoia seems like a twisted form of negative attributional bias, that is, assuming a hostile intent from a neutral action. (“Plain vanilla” as distinguished from hallucinations or delusions, like hearing things in your teeth fillings). This seems related to assuming the intent from others — possibly from facial expressions. So, to us, plain vanilla paranoia seems related to those clinical conditions where there is a problem of perception. Like, where people can’t see faces (prosopagnosia), or assume someone familiar is an imposter (Capgas syndrome), that kind of thing. We’re guessing. We’ve wondered in lack of affective empathy is a sort of perception mis-cue — like, seeing everyone in the uncanny valley (that point at which robots are sufficiently lifelike to be creepy). If you see people as in the uncanny valley, then you’d consider them creepy, and no wonder the affective empathy is on the back burner.
You mention you are racist/would enjoy oppressing others not like you (presumably). Perhaps this in-group territoriality (and out-group aggressive hostility) is related to perception. In-group altruism and out-group hostility is well studied as you can imagine, and lately, there are some studies on the automatic neuro-firing along well worn paths leading to racism/negative biases toward the outgroups. People are pretty easy to train that way — all you have to do is to put a hat on half the people and tell the other half that people with hats are bad and there you go– in- group preference, out-group aggressive hostility. We wonder what the evolutionary advantage of preferring your own in-group would be — after all, in-breeding engenders blooms of all sorts of deleterious recessive traits. We would think that being open to others would give rise to a far more resilient, disease-resistant genome. We suppose out-group hostility benefits by securing resources for those most genetically related, i.e., war-like behavior (and excuse our cartoonish evolutionary genetics explanation, even we don’t believe it.) .
Even then, game theory argues not for killing off the out-group, but rather for co-opting them to everyone’s benefit. To wit: Romans. No, out-group agressive hostility seems based on negative attributional bias — the out-group is out to hurt you. Recent reports indicate that with a whiff of oxytocin up the nose promotes such parochial altruism (toward one’s in group) and defensive behavior toward out-groups. So perhaps your oxytocin receptors are configured to “tend and defend” your in-group, but then there’s another layer leading toward aggressive hostility.
Perhaps your out-group aggressive hostility relates to neural plasticity. Authoritarian personalities were described in a report from the Adorno’s 1950s report, defined by nine traits –conventionalism, authoritarian submission, authoritarian aggression, anti-intellectualism, anti-intraception, superstition and stereotypy, power and “toughness”, destructiveness and cynicism, projectivity, and exaggerated concerns over sex. All these behavioral traits seem spell out trouble wtih neural plasticity. And, you need neural plasticity to learn new things (can’t have the brain cells stuck in one place). There are obvious advantages to forming new neural connections. And so being a racist is inconsistent with having a high IQ (if IQ indicates high brain plasticity for rapidly learning new things).
So we wonder if this in group ethnocentrism/out-group aggressive hostility is related to perception/neural plasticity, in the first instance, and second, in terms of group territoriality. Research on affiliative molecules (oxytocin/vasopressin and their receptors) and the ability to bond to others is relevant. This is throughout the animal kingdom — some animals mate for life, others don’t, some do for a while and then wonder off. The receptor allelic variants, and their expression levels/location, all play into the degree to which we bond with others. These also relate to how we behave in groups — the “be true to your school” kind of thing. Your loyalty towards other strikes us as territoriality, rather than affective empathy (because your comments indicate lack of affective empathy). Think of animals who defend their turf.
Question: How’s your singing? Do you like musical music (not just drum-beat type music)? Can you carry a tune? Can you dance?
We ask because particular vasopressin receptor variants are associated with good singers and good dancers, while other variants are associated with tone deafness/amusia.
All of this has a dopamine overlay. Psychopaths are known to have ginormous striatums — and striatums are chock full of dopamine receptors. We’ve wondered if this is a developmental artifact, and in this blog we’ve proposed in utero drinking, drugging or other toxins that traverse the placenta to result in neurodevelopmental distortions. There could also be epigenetic effects. And so it’s really a nature-nurture, in the sense that the in utero environment can have just as big an effect as your genetic lottery card. And so if dopaminergic system is a bad actor in the addiction arena, the dopaminesque need for thrill seeking comes into play. (We are of the school that addiction is primarily biological, a disease, rather than any kind of character or metaphysical issue.)
But, as you can see from some of the comments on the “Stalking” post, it seems that there are some compulsive stalkers. It strikes us as an addiction — something that people don’t necessarily want to do, but it gives them a thrill. (And thank you for clarifying that it’s the thrill, not the pain-avoidance, we wondered about that). If your have a high need for dopamine then perhaps base jumping or some sort of X-factor sport would satisfy that. Or maybe there’s a psych med that can fill up those dopamine receptors. (No, we’re not a doctor, we seriously are guessing here).
Again, take all of this as nothing more than the musings of an anonymous blogger. We seriously have no idea about any of this. SD, we hope you find something in here relevant, we’re really just guessing at all of this. Our aim is to educate our readers. Disclaimer, disclaimer, disclaimer, we’re not qualified to give advice about anything.
One thing you can do to check out yourself is to go to 23 and me and get your DNA done (or some other company, we say 23 and me because you can browse your raw data), Check out some of the SNPs relating to serotonin, oxytocin, vasopressin, BDNF and some of the other neurotransmitters. While we aren’t genetic determinists, we think it is a good starting point for elucidating some of the biology behind the behaviors you describe. Plus it’s cheaper than a brain scan of your white matter.
I see why narcissism relates to low-empathy. What is low self-awareness part of it? Why can’t someone be a self-aware narcissist?
About the ethnocentrism & in-group altruism: I think I’ve got the tendencies that most people have (we’re tribal, like chimps, or our ancestors of a hundred or more years ago), without the discretion. Our modern American society (as opposed to say, Israeli society 1940s, Serb society of the 1990s or USA until about the 1940s) tries to put the brakes on tribal thinking. My understanding is that because I lack the conformity and moral compass of most Americans, I give free reign to my ethnocentric nature.
If you study ethnocentrism, you’ll see that consanguineous marriage works well in places like Iraq and Saudi Arabia. Yes, they have more recessive defects, but the benefits – rock solid ingroup altruism – more than compensate. That’s how Saddam’s, Kaddafi’s and the Saud clan got to take all of Libya’s oil wealth for so long. Jews have lots of recessive gene disorders, but they do quite well, because they tend to work together.
The reason why you exterminate your enemies (see ancient Japan, China, Old Testament, Stalin, StarCraft) is that it works. That’s why chimps, babboons, ants, bees and humans do it.
IQ and ethnocentrism are orthogonal. Look at the founders of Israel: a bunch of Ashkenazim with very high verbal IQs. They kicked ass. They continue to kick ass. Simiarly, the Japanese are conscientious, intelligent (more than Caucasians) and very ethnocentric.
The anti-authoritarian personality studies you mention were produced by people intent on dampening ethnocentric tendencies in the USA.
I get you territoriality vs affective empathy. I’d be happy if “my group” exterminated the other groups. But that doesn’t mean I love everyone in my group. In fact, a bunch of them need culling. I think a lot of guys at the top (Hitler, Emperor Hirohito) thought this way.
I’ve got terrible rythm, but probably not so much worse than most Caucasians. I don’t know if I can carry a tune – probably average.
Thanks for the 23 and me tip!
I already do risky sports. I also take big financial risks – I’m not nearly as risk-averse as typical people. Looking back on my life, I’ve realized I’ve done a bunch of antisocial things. It’s a pattern. It has mostly worked for me.
SD, we think the issue is in how you define “success” or “what works.” In terms of acquisition of resources, if you kill everyone else, of course that “works.” You win, you get it all. Taken to its logical extreme, your society is now n=1. Like that Twilight Zone episode where the guy has the pocket watch that stops time? So he stops time and steals all this money? And then he drops the stop watch and everyone else is frozen in time, but he has all the money? So if it works for you, we’re guessing this is in terms of resource acquisition, rather than feelings of love or being beloved. This makes sense: if you lack the organic wiring to love or get satisfaction from being loved, then of course you wouldn’t find it of any value. Resources, as a proxy for power, probably floats your boat.
In terms of securing resources, then in-group altruism/out-group aggression works. That is, until there are smaller and smaller in-groups. Deadwood is a good example. Society generally is more productive where there is cooperation rather than aggression. That’s why we presume that on the whole, taken over larger periods of time and large geography, the ability to bond with others and have affective empathy is more evolutionarily advantageous. The oil nations are lucky — they have patrilineal societies because they’re making hay while the sun shines, so to speak, and seeking to preserve their own resources. Other than that we have no comment on your ethnic generalizations, including the fact that many ethnic groups have stuck together because they were historically blocked by the majority — laws and social mores from the predominant ethnic group of whatever society they were in. Beyond our pay grade to figure out why your selected ethnic groups have your asserted stereotypical views determined by cherry-picking historical fact. We’re a little surprised that someone who professes to be basically an unemotional rational being would have such strong biases that seem emotionally based, rather than fact based. In-group territoriality is a strong biological urge, we see. The authoritarian personality studies seem have never been criticized in terms of data collection. The sample sizes are quite large, and the characteristics are measured 10 ways to Sunday. So, not so easy to dismiss as being put out by a group with an agenda. We’re surprised that you would dismiss this this easily instead of looking at the data — that calls us to query if you are really a sociopath. A purely rational being would look at the data and determine how it could be most useful. You, on the other hand, have dismissed these studies as biased, presumably without factual basis (statistical analysis) solely on the basis of your presumed subjective intent of the authors. Interesting. (The reports show up on Amazon every once in a while — they’re about $50 or so each.) We find them instructive.
There are other biological aspects — like social bonding, novelty-seeking, fear, that kind thing, that have biological bases. These aren’t known to be the psychopath strong suit, and some reports indicate that there are organic reasons why the psychopath is unable to bond with others. As far as your musical ability and rhythm, this is interesting. Synchronous drumming (we did a blog post on this) induces a feeling of unity, and pro-social behavior later. See the North Korean displays of pageantry. But, if you can’t get down with the beat, does that mean that you’re not prone to that feeling of unity? We wonder if this is related to vasopressin receptor variants that are associated with dance and rhythmic movement. Check back in after you get your DNA done and we’ll give you a list of SNPs to check (you can check your raw data with 23 and me, we’re not sure about the other brands — it takes a few months for the results). We’ll post it as an “Exclusive! Potential Sociopath SNPs!” What a scoop for us. Plus, it would be interesting to see if your ancestry matches up with your in-group proclivities.
As far as introspection, we think that narcissism involves a lack of ability to see how others see them. And — we’re no DSM expert (in fact, we query the utility of the DSM industrial complex) — but it seems that narcissist are limited in their ability to see how they look to others. Schizophrenia, to us, seems related, in that with people diagnosed as such (and we’re not sure what that diagnosis means, exactly) there is an inability to see that they have that condition. Addiction as well – addicts don’t think they have a problem. (The show Intervention is a good one, few addicts go to rehab willingly). The ability to have introspection has been localized to a little tip in the frontal part of the brain. We wonder if this part is stunted in narcissists.
I respectfully disagree with you about the advantages and disadvantages of ethnocentric and genocidal thinking. I’m a pragmatic person – rather than looking at studies that scholars with an axe to grind* produced, I look at things like Europeans taking over the New World, China taking over Tibet, Jews taking over what used to be called Palestine, etc. and conclude that genocide works, and that genocidal thinkers can be intelligent, neuroplastic, etc. If nothing else, I’m as extreme as they come and I’ve got an IQ two standard deviations above the norm; I’m in the cognitive elite.
I ordered the 23 and me kit.
* anyone that studies sociobiology sees how it fits what we see, and sees sociobiologists attacked by people who don’t like the implications of their ideas.
swivelchair: I’ve given this more thought. I figure I’m just an extremist. You know, the sort who is willing to “do bad things” for his beliefs.
If you do your research, you’ll see that psychology hasn’t really got a good handle on that sort of guy. A lot of them have no apparent psychopathology. They just take offense and take action.
Clearly extremists have a lot in common with sociopaths, in that they transgress, take offense and take action. The difference is that they’ve got some principles. Basically, there’s a group of people (large or small) that they treat like people. Others are in the non-person category.
If an extremist decided that all persons were in the non-person category, he’d essentially be a sociopath. Although it isn’t at all clear why he’d develop the glib charm or emotion-faking ability of typical sociopaths.
SD, ok, extremist. This does make more sense.
Your posts have motivated us to read up on genocide studies. Clearly the leaders have an agenda (viz., steal a bunch of resources and kill all the people to get their stuff/land/eliminate competition). The leaders drum up the propaganda to agitate the followers. The leaders who view the atrocities as the mere instrumentality toward the end of basically mass thievery are clearly psychopathic, to us. This goes along with the charm, emotion-faking, etc. as instrumentalities toward an end goal. The followers — usually “ordinary” people as you suggest — who are of interest.
We gather that recent academic genocide theory proposes that, for the “ordinary extremist” followers, it’s the avoidance of social rejection that’s the kicker, that gets people in the “just following orders” mode to commit atrocities. See the Goldhagen book, “Hitler’s Willing Executioners,” and some of the follow up commentary. We’re interested in the biology behind this. Those who propose genocide (or other murder of out-groups) may be simply those who are motivated to not be kicked out of their own “in-group” — in other words, those most anxious about social rejection. Social rejection has large biological consequences (in the insula, among other brain reactive areas), and is similar, neuro-wise, to physical pain. Even anticipated social rejection has brain signals similar to those of physical pain. And so we guess that these “followers” don’t even believe the propaganda BS promulgated to justify genocide, but rather just are those who want to be part of their “in group,” without social rejection. We think there’s probably a vasopressin-territoriality component to the whole thing, as well. In addition, there’s a social hierarchy within the genocidal “in-group” and increase in social rank relates to serotonin and dopamine systems. Plus, the propaganda then is spun to indicate some kind of “unfairness” or restoration of justice through genocide, playing on the brain circuits for fairness and justice. (Note to self: Do a post that is a monograph, “The social neuroscience of genocide”).
And so if you look at Hitler, or Rwanda for that matter, some studies point to the ordinary citizen who was seeking to, at a minimum, avoid being kicked out of their in-group (vasopressin in-group bonding/avoiding insular pain). Then, once within the in-group, they seek social rank/dominance (serotonin, dopamine). The disgust/fairness/justice circuits in response to propaganda BS seems to be incidental, and maybe is more prominent once people start to actually see the murders they have committed. Or, if they don’t care about that, then perhaps they are sociopaths (as you indicate), as the lack of introspection would indicate there’s a neuro disconnect. The compartmentalization — that is, being a mass murderer and coming home to a suburban life — is not explained by the apparent brain disfunctionality in psychopathy. So extremist does make more sense, in that regard.
I just happened to read the post from Serber back in September – I must have missed it earlier. I started writing a book on my experience with being a stalker, but have stopped writing for some time because it triggers too much anguish in me and I was advised to leave it for a while. I have to be protective of myself and allow lots of room so not to become too consumed with the past. It also triggered PTSD symptoms in me which made me think of PTSD possibly being a component in Serber’s stalking.
When he wrote: “The woman terminated her relationship with me unexpectedly. I do not know the reason(s) for it but have a strong suspicion it involves another man, among other reasons. It is sort of a blindside that has happened to me before and ended up with me stalking/harassing the victim.”
I have often mentioned to others about being “blindsided” with it possibly being a hypervigilent defense from being caught off guard some how. If I lash out and am suspicious of others motives, then I can protect myself from being hurt. Harm the other person, before they can harm you. I hope you are getting help and would like to hear how things are going for you. You compelled me to start writing again. Thank you.
C – sorry about bugging you about the book, can see how that would not be great therapeutically for you even if it would be a help for others. Interesting about proactive aggression based on presumed hostile intent of the other.
Since we are discussing the possible clinical causes for the stalking, in my case thyrotoxicosis. Which left me with, among other things, insomnia (no REM sleep), uncharacteristic irritability, unexplained sadness, paranoia and anxiety. I am normally able to let go of thoughts and move on, not this time.
Hypervigilance was also an issue with me. I had to do things right now. There was a time when I could tell you everything the guy I was after said, word for word. Maybe this guy triggered a dopamine rush that alleviated my condition and I was chasing that high. He was all I could focus on at the time.
Addiction runs in my family-drugs, alcohol, caffeine, sugar so that would make sense. Knowing my family history I thought I could control any addictions. I had never considered looking at people as addictions even though they also give us chemical rushes.
Snoop Dog’s comments are alarming. I have suspected GPS and/or surveillance of family vehicles and homes. Odd things happen and I don’t believe in coincidences. Resources could determine the extent of the stalking, which I think this guy has.
This isn’t the first time I have been stalked, but they have never lasted this long. Now I’m wondering what I’m doing wrong that attracts this kind of attention. I agree, you have to first know that you have a problem before you can stop. I was in this state for about 2 weeks before I made myself stop. Some may not want to stop.
M- never thought of that, that resources are the limiting factor on the extent of the stalker. Sort of like the drug addict. As far as being a target of a stalker, why would you think you have done anything wrong? How could you possibly control the stalker?
Most people think that the victim has no responsibility for what happens to them… I disagree. I think there is always something they could have done differently. For example, a rape victim may wear provocative clothing and flirt with someone all night long at a bar and then completely absolve themselves for their own contributing factors in illiciting the assault. I am not saying that a person’s dress warrants being raped by any means, just that they could have behaved differently – and probably will after such a traumatic incident.If someone runs me off the road and I crash my car, I’d be angry with them, but how long I stay angry is not their fault. I can blame them for being angry, but ultimately that is my choice.
I know for me that humiliation is a huge factor in triggering my stalking behavior in the past. I have a girlfriend now with whom I never exhibited stalking behavior toward. She never judged me and has compassion and understanding for many of my struggles. Our relationship has been far from perfect and I still have an anger problem – she lets me know if I hurt her, but she never humiliated me because of it. She decided to end our relationship and I never thought of stalking her once – I let go. We split for several months and now are getting along very well. Because she handles all people with compassion,she – like Jack Nicholson said to Helen Hunt in As Good As It Gets…”You make me want to be a better person”… and she does.
The woman I stalked was angry and judging and took no responsibility for her behavior that triggers other’s trauma. It’s interesting because I had found out that she was stabbed by one of her patients and another time held hostage by another …coincidence??? I think not.
I understand it’s not my fault that I’m being stalked. What I meant was, how can I lessen my chances of being stalked in the future? In my case, am I appearing like easy prey? Do I look like I would let someone walk all over me and just take it? I am afraid that this will happen again and again. I think about the similarities between two guys that come to mind and they both seemed very emotional (unstable). One seemed sweet under normal circumstances. I wasn’t around the last guy under normal circumstances, but he has made it clear that he is a jerk. Sane (stable) people don’t follow others around, and good people don’t follow others around to harass them.
The revenge stalking started when I messaged and apologized for my behavior but there may have been an initial misunderstanding. I have been told that I sometimes appear snobbish or appear to be talking down to people when I think I’m being straight forward. This guy may have thought I was brushing him off, when I was thinking- not now I’m hurting. He has been following me around during a time which I have not been myself entirely and maybe come to the wrong conclusion about me. He has also had plenty of time to stop if he wanted to. Then again I don’t know what is going on in his head either.
I also agree, you should control as much of any situation as possible. Don’t dress like a prostitute, and you are less likely to get approached by guys only looking for sex. Don’t go out alone in the dark and you are less likely to get assaulted. Both can still happen and do. Most of us are usually rational enough to understand and respect when someone says no, very few of us are not. All the more reason to always be careful and considerate when interacting with anyone I suppose. Stalking is an extreme response to having your feelings hurt. Wouldn’t calling this person a name or yelling at them have been enough? There might have been other issues at work here.
All this is emotionally exhausting and it ends up doing a job on your psyche. I want to get over this. For a while I would go back and forth on the reasons why he was stalking me, failing to focus on what was right in front of me. I wasn’t thinking straight. Now I’m having trouble accepting the fact that I liked another jerk. I will never look at battered spouses the same. There is something wrong with our brains that keep us attached to the wrong people.
I understand it’s not my fault that I’m being stalked. What I meant was, how can I lessen my chances of being stalked in the future? In my case, am I appearing like easy prey? Do I look like I would let someone walk all over me and just take it? I am afraid that this will happen again and again. I think about the similarities between two guys that come to mind and they both seemed very emotional (unstable). One seemed sweet under normal circumstances. I wasn’t around the last guy under normal circumstances, but he has made it clear that he is a jerk. Sane (stable) people don’t follow others around, and good people don’t follow others around to harass them.
The revenge stalking started when I messaged and apologized for my behavior but there may have been an initial misunderstanding. I have been told that I sometimes appear snobbish or appear to be talking down to people when I think I’m being straight forward. This guy may have thought I was brushing him off, when I was thinking- not now I’m hurting. He has been following me around during a time which I have not been myself entirely and maybe come to the wrong conclusion about me. He has also had plenty of time to stop if he wanted to. Then again I don’t know what is going on in his head either.
I also agree, you should control as much of any situation as possible. Don’t dress like a prostitute, and you are less likely to get approached by guys only looking for sex. Don’t go out alone in the dark and you are less likely to get assaulted. Both can still happen and do. Most of us are usually rational enough to understand and respect when someone says no, very few of us are not. All the more reason to always be careful and considerate when interacting with anyone I suppose. Stalking is an extreme response to having your feelings hurt. Wouldn’t calling this person a name or yelling at them have been enough? There might have been other issues at work here.
All this is emotionally exhausting and it ends up doing a job on your psyche. I want to get over this. For a while I would go back and forth on the reasons why he was stalking me, failing to focus on what was right in front of me. I wasn’t thinking straight. Now I’m having trouble accepting the fact that I liked another jerk. I will never look at battered spouses the same. There is something wrong with our brains that keep us attached to the wrong people.
Yup, there is a sign on your forehead that is written in a language that only abusers can read. I hear women ask that question all of the time, but they don’t seem to take it too seriously. There’s a light on the individual that attracts abusive men and women and the “victim” needs to learn how to turn it off.
One day I went to the registry of motor vehicles and the place was packed, so after I got my number, there was no seats available so I stood against the wall next to a man with whom I had a conversation with. We talked the whole time I was there – probably 1.5 hours. After I left, I called a friend and she said, “Wow, you sound really wound up.” I told her I was talking with a guy and I felt “charged.” Then she asked me, “What was he like?” While describing him I realized I had just described my father. The man was loud, obnoxious, arrogant, condescending and angry. But on the flip side, I felt sorry for him – his demeanor begged for someone to pity him. The confusing part was that I really felt comfortable around him, until I realized that “comfortable” actually meant “familiar.” Obviously I wasn’t comfortable at all – i was extremely on edge when I left the registry. Was it a coincidence I stood next to that man – I don’t think so. I think subconsciously I chose him because I knew him well – he was the same man who raised me.
I never would have realized that if I wasn’t mindful of the the question that my friend asked me. I thought I stayed away from and recognized abusive people, but this one slipped under the radar.
I’m taking it seriously. I don’t want to end up with someone like my father, far from it, but the attraction is so alluring. I never wanted anyone like I wanted this guy. Now that you mention it, yes, I felt too comfortable with this guy, too quickly. So much so that I couldn’t holdback my emotions. It is familiarity. I looked into his eyes, and it felt right. I even wanted to sleep with him before we had said so much as a full paragraph to each other.
That would be a sign then. If I’m attracted to him then he’s probably like my father and I should keep him at a distance.
This is odd. I don’t like my father and he knows it. I tolerate him. I don’t pretend to like him. Here I am being drawn to guys like him. I thought I was smarter than that.
Hello I’m a journalist at BBC World radio. I’d love to speak with someone who has felt obsessively about someone. We could speak anonymously. Please email megha.mohan@bbc.co.uk with number
So just as I’d finally stopped thinking about the two girls i’m totally obsessed with…my sister mentions them (they’re going to dinner at her place tomorrow) and that’s all it took and i can’t stop thinking about them. All I want to do is rock up at my sisters place (over an hour away) at the same time so i can see them…
but i ruined my relationship over 6 years ago with my sister over them once and i can’t do that again.
So what did I do instead? I went to another girl i obsess over (though nowhere near as strongly) who was a teacher at my high school (2012 will be my fourth year out of high school) and i went this afternoon and just sat in the carpark writing on my laptop hoping for a glimpse…but it was a fail. which is probably a good thing.
If anyone knows how to STOP thinking about someone, please please please tell me. this is driving me crazy. it depresses the hell out of me, and i’m doing so well depression-wise now, i don’t want to go back to the places i’ve been…